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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The problem is, the passage in question, Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads", is very clear. If X then Y. There's no question what the passage means, nor can Christians simply pretend Leviticus doesn't apply anymore, Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 5:18 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

    So why aren't more Christians out killing gays left and right? Because Christianity and other religious have been moderated by secular society in the western world, they are not allowed to get away with what their holy book calls for so they've changed their beliefs to reflect their inability to do what the Bible calls for.
    You're doing what the homophobic zealots do -- taking the Bible as a static unchanging package of contradictory things, rather than a record of how god's relationship with man changed over time. Look at the very beginning, then the commandments and such, then Jesus and tell me that that relationship -- and the LAW! -- didn't change. You can't. God is, as portrayed in the Bible, timeless -- but his relationship to man had to evolve over time because man isn't timeless.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    Not all Christian Churches require it and everyone has their own reasons for why they give. Suffice it to say it does not take away from the fact that religious people give more to charities than secular people even though secular people were found to make more money (it's all in the last source I cited).
    Regardless, it proves they are counting money as charitable giving which simply is not charitable and does not go to help people. Further, even if people are not indoctrinated into giving a portion of their income to the church, which may do *NOTHING* charitable with it, when the plate gets passed around, peer pressure pushes most people to stick something into it regardless of their desire to do something charitable. It just proves that these studies are flawed and therefore, their conclusions highly questionable.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You're doing what the homophobic zealots do -- taking the Bible as a static unchanging package of contradictory things, rather than a record of how god's relationship with man changed over time. Look at the very beginning, then the commandments and such, then Jesus and tell me that that relationship -- and the LAW! -- didn't change. You can't. God is, as portrayed in the Bible, timeless -- but his relationship to man had to evolve over time because man isn't timeless.
    No, I'm looking at what the Bible actually says instead of what it can be twisted to say by people who cannot bring themselves to stomach what it actually says. Find me a place in the New Testament where Jesus said he changed his mind and homosexuality is actually okay. Find me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said slavery was evil. You're desperately trying to justify ignoring things when the Bible doesn't say what you want it to say.

    Just read the damn book.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, I'm looking at what the Bible actually says instead of what it can be twisted to say by people who cannot bring themselves to stomach what it actually says. Find me a place in the New Testament where Jesus said he changed his mind and homosexuality is actually okay. Find me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said slavery was evil. You're desperately trying to justify ignoring things when the Bible doesn't say what you want it to say.

    Just read the damn book.

    I agree - read the damn(ed) book

    Where in the New Testament is Jesus quoted as saying anything about homosexuality, either negative or positive?

    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether was he for it or against?


    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I agree - read the damn(ed) book

    Where in the New Testament is Jesus quoted as saying anything about homosexuality, either negative or positive?

    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether was he for it or against?


    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.
    Is that your way of saying you support slavery?

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I agree - read the damn(ed) book

    Where in the New Testament is Jesus quoted as saying anything about homosexuality, either negative or positive?

    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether was he for it or against?


    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is that your way of saying you support slavery?

    Does anyone else see the connection between what I posted and what Grant has posted? - 'cause I sure don't
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Regardless, it proves they are counting money as charitable giving which simply is not charitable and does not go to help people. Further, even if people are not indoctrinated into giving a portion of their income to the church, which may do *NOTHING* charitable with it, when the plate gets passed around, peer pressure pushes most people to stick something into it regardless of their desire to do something charitable. It just proves that these studies are flawed and therefore, their conclusions highly questionable.
    They're counting charitable donations.

    More from source I quoted earlier:
    Some charge that religious people contribute mainly to their own congregations, so in a sense they are giving charity to themselves. As it turns out, though, religious Americans do not limit their philanthropy to their own congregations or even to religious causes more generally.

    And even if they did, local congregations are often on the front lines of providing charitable services to the poor and needy through food pantries, soup kitchens and shelters. Campbell and Putnam: Charity's Religious Edge - WSJ.com
    Every study has their drawbacks and it's important to look at that but I get the feeling that you don't really care about anything they say unless it paints religious (or maybe just christian) people in a bad light.


    This is the study that actually first made me aware of the giving divide, I heard about it a while back and was surprised about the findings like the author was:

    Brooks finds that households with a conservative at the helm gave an average of 30 percent more money to charity in 2000 than liberal households (a difference of $1,600 to $1,227). The difference isn't explained by income differential—in fact, liberal households make about 6 percent more per year. Poor, rich, and middle class conservatives all gave more than their liberal counterparts. And while religion is a major factor, the figures don't just show tithing to churches. Religious donors give significantly more to non-religious causes than do their secular counterparts.
    The Giving Gap - Reason.com
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    You are assuming that those who put together the first cornerstones of the Christian religion wouldn't do so around someone else if they felt they could gain power in doing so. I don't believe this. I think many Christians have good intentions. I also believe there were a lot of higher ups in the church that were more than happy to manipulate circumstances for their own power gains. If not for Christ, it is more than likely that at least some of those earlier groups would have chosen someone. It isn't inconceivable that it could have happened.
    I am not the one making assumptions here. You said outright that you think without Jesus there would still likely be Christmas. I said that was conjecture because it is. There are a lot of assumptions that you have to make in order to come to that conclusion and little to no fact. There were a lot of steps between those few Jews following Jesus to the 33,000+ Christian denominations we know today so to make the claim that without those same steps we would still be at the same place we are today you would have to make some pretty big assumptions especially since there were other Christ figures during that time period and they all just sort of fizzled out. In any case it doesn’t really matter we are where we are today.

    And some may not have agreed with celebrating Christmas because of the Pagan holiday, but many did and did so on purpose. They saw an advantage to it.
    They (early Christians) didn’t celebrate Christmas. That didn’t technically come around until closer to the 11th century. That was one of the points I was trying to get across in my other posts they tried to figure out the date of birth of Jesus they made a point of celebrating his birth in different areas of the world so depending on what time period and where you were from you would be celebrating the birth of Christ at different times of the year if you were even celebrating it at all which is why it is an oversimplification to say that they simply saw an opportunity to co-opt another tradition and took it.

    It is not likely that Jesus's birth would have been in either December or January. The weather and the census are two things that suggest it is not likely. It is possible, as is anything. It just honestly could have been any time during the year.

    We just can't know either way, but it isnt hard to imagine that there could still be a Christmas without Jesus. But it is almost certain that there would still be holiday celebrations of some sort during this season. People had found ways to celebrate during this time of year for many centuries prior to Jesus's birth. It just doesn't take much to imagine that they would continue to celebrate something because people like to celebrate things and what better time than around the longest day of the year?

    Whether it was likely or not it was one of the proposed dates and not because of Saturnalia. Chronographiai placed it at December 25 more or less and it’s one of the earliest dates proposed.

    You can imagine that each little step that got us from the first Christians today would have still taken place and got us to Christmas but it doesn’t serve any purpose. It’s extremely unlikely given the amount of time passed and all of the little events that had taken place. Change one thing especially something huge like the actual mangod worshipped and the sequence of events change. You honestly have no basis for the claims you make and no reason to make them. The only thing I do agree with you on is that there would still be some sort of celebration around the winter solstice, that’s something that has surpassed cultures and time. Either way though I don’t see what any of this has to do with anything.

    I wouldn't interrupt other people's celebrations either. But I don't blame people who do so for something that is not their fault. No matter how much you don't like their actions, they did nothing that caused the church to not be able to put up their displays by putting up their own displays. It was something that was caused by the vandals but likely would have happened eventually anyway. But that is life, things change, people adapt. It really is probably better. Now more of the area can get "displays" for the season (hopefully with positive messages). Maybe there can be more of them with a greater level of effort put into them. With a little effort and care and less whining, they could make some pretty nice displays across the city to put up for the holidays and the park can be used for more park-like activities, such as playing in.
    I’m glad you wouldn’t want to interrupt someone’s 60 year old tradition of celebrating with their loved ones.

    I can’t say I disagree with the rest of your post.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Does anyone else see the connection between what I posted and what Grant has posted? - 'cause I sure don't
    You said
    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether was he for it or against?
    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.
    You mentioned slavery but never came out against it. In many circles, according to you, that would indicate your support.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, I'm looking at what the Bible actually says instead of what it can be twisted to say by people who cannot bring themselves to stomach what it actually says. Find me a place in the New Testament where Jesus said he changed his mind and homosexuality is actually okay. Find me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said slavery was evil. You're desperately trying to justify ignoring things when the Bible doesn't say what you want it to say.

    Just read the damn book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I agree - read the damn(ed) book

    Where in the New Testament is Jesus quoted as saying anything about homosexuality, either negative or positive?

    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether was he for it or against?


    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is that your way of saying you support slavery?
    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Does anyone else see the connection between what I posted and what Grant has posted? - 'cause I sure don't

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You said
    Where in the New Testament does Jesus say anything about slavery and whether he was for it or against?
    In many circles, silence, when confronted with evil indicates support.
    You mentioned slavery but never came out against it. In many circles, according to you, that would indicate your support.
    I "mentioned slavery" as it related to whether or not there are any known words from the person known as Jesus of Nazareth (if he existed or not) concerning slavery. It was a very short statement on that one matter. To attempt to conflate that with me 'supporting' slavery does seem to be a bit of a stretch, an attempt to defend one (perhaps never was) person for their failure to talk about slavery by making an accusation against me based on a rather weak attempt at comparison of statements or non-statements as it were. My one sentence is somehow to be considered equal to all of the words attributed to the man known as Jesus - interesting.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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