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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Who else expresses Peace, Goodwill and Charity as their expressed philosophy? Is that the atheist message as well?
    Pretty much everyone makes those claims, very few fail in those claims as badly as Christians.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You made the very first speculation in this conversation, saying that without Jesus, there would be no Christmas holiday. We weren't talking about the specific holiday of Christmas, we were talking about the season and celebrations within that season. You cannot know that there would be no celebrations within this season without Jesus.

    You can't even know for sure that there would be no Christmas, since "Christ" is actually a part of his title and so therefore could have easily been given to someone else had Jesus not existed.
    I doubt that Christ's mass would still be celebrated today without Jesus since he is the Christ that it is based off of.

    There were/are lot's of holidays centered around the winter solstice so I agree that we would probably be celebrating something if Christmas did not exist, it would have likely carried over from one culture to another (usually does).

    I'm not sure what any of this has to do with atheists trying to derail a 60 year old christian tradition of celebrating Christmas in a park though.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's as far as the atheists have come along in their philosophical message? Defacing signs?

    They're going to have to try a little harder if they're to gain any converts.
    Atheists didn't deface any signs, but even going beyond Santa Monica, whenever an atheist sign goes up anywhere, it gets defaced by Christians.

    What a bunch of slimeballs.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Some Christians think so, yeah. Not all Christianity think that homosexuality is an abomination.
    Sure, that's why there are 41,000 sects of Christianity, but anyone who actually reads and follows the Bible, which supposedly they think is the inspired word of God, can come to no other interpretation, the Bible supports hatred of gays and defends slavery. It's only Christians who pick and choose which parts they want to pay attention to and which parts they want to ignore that come to other conclusions, mostly because those parts are morally reprehensible to them.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Pretty much everyone makes those claims, very few fail in those claims as badly as Christians.
    Why? Some of the largest charity organizations in the world are christian non-prof orgs.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It is hers and possibly your own version of the truth, but that doesn't make it fact. I don't believe Jesus was born on Christmas or any of the story of the nativity, yet I still celebrate Christmas. It has nothing to do with Jesus to me and to many others. So yes, it is "insulting" in a way for someone to try to claim that Jesus is the only reason for the season (I am strong enough to not care though, but will point it out when necessary to make my point).
    There's no question that Jesus wasn't born in December, the Biblical narrative makes it very clear it's not possible. The Church adopted December 25 as a date to celebrate it because the pagan cultures they were trying desperately to convert were using that date already for a pagan celebration so they just declared the celebration of Jesus' birth on the same day, the same as they did with Easter. So clearly, Jesus not only has never been the reason for the season (that's the winter solstice), Jesus was just something randomly tacked on to get more followers for the Catholic church.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    Oh no worries. Instead of the "War on Christmas" it's morphed into a "War on atheists".
    Hey, they're running scared, non-belief is the fastest growing segment of the population, people are fleeing the churches, they're losing power, what else are they going to do now that their empty and pathetic beliefs have failed them?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's as far as the atheists have come along in their philosophical message? Defacing signs?

    They're going to have to try a little harder if they're to gain any converts.
    So they defaced their own signs in an effort to make Christians look bad? Is that your position?


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    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    Why? Some of the largest charity organizations in the world are christian non-prof orgs.
    That's completely false. The largest charities out there are completely secular. The Red Cross, for instance, the largest charity there is, has nothing to do with religion. The most prolific charitable givers are also atheists. Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffet give billions to help others and don't believe in gods. Then you take many of the most wealthy religious public figures and they give essentially nothing.

    It's a myth perpetuated by the religious that you have to be religious to be caring. It's a flat-out lie.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Sure, that's why there are 41,000 sects of Christianity, but anyone who actually reads and follows the Bible, which supposedly they think is the inspired word of God, can come to no other interpretation, the Bible supports hatred of gays and defends slavery. It's only Christians who pick and choose which parts they want to pay attention to and which parts they want to ignore that come to other conclusions, mostly because those parts are morally reprehensible to them.
    Emphasis mine. I see where you're coming from, but unfortunately as far as the bolded portion goes you're not correct. Life would ultimately be much more simple if you were correct.

    The Jehova's Witnesses, for example, are a sect that exists all by itself because if a disagreement with every other sect over what one particular verse actually means -- they're not ignoring it, they're not reading it selectively, they simply understand it differently.

    As far as it goes with the old testament (especially Leviticus), you have to keep in mind that when Jesus Christ showed up, the Bible portrays him as the replacement for all the laws that came before -- not because there are no restrictions in the wake of Christ's first coming, but because the vast bulk of the laws that predated him had to do with how to be righteous and how to assuage god's wrath when you fall short of being righteous. For example, Christ's death on the cross replaces the sacrifice of animals, only better -- animal sacrifice covered the since, Christ's blood washed them away. In the wake of that paradigm shift are some much simpler principles -- believe Jesus is your savior, and whatever treatment you show to the least significant person on the face of the earth you are showing to Jesus Christ.

    The Christians who have a hard-on for Leviticus are ignoring this simple truth. They take the whole Bible as being the unblemished word of god, rather than a long-term record of god's relationship with Israel, vast swaths of which are ultimately replaced, altered or updated by Christ's sacrifice. God didn't change, but the relationship underwent some serious modifications. These same Christians are also ignoring the historical realities behind the Bible, the reality of what translation does to a text, and treating many passages which are simple recordings of what happened as god's stamp of approval on those happenings.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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