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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

  1. #511
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And you still don't understand. There are other reasons for the season even if the majority thinks that Jesus is the only reason for it. The majority is simply wrong. Jesus is not the only reason for the season. Jesus wasn't even the initial reason for it. So it is an insult to all those who see other reasons because it excludes their reasons or at least discounts them as "unimportant" eventhough those reasons are important to those who have them, such as myself.
    In Western Civilization including Europe and the US it is. No getting around that. You yourself said "Jesus was the "reason for the season". Although true," so which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are still trying to claim that it can't be insulting because a majority believes a certain way, even if the majority is wrong, and they are. Jesus is not the only reason for the season, and that is a fact. And to many, even if still a minority, Jesus is not the reason for the season.
    No I am not trying to claim that or anything close. It is the reason for the holiday in American culture. That is what I am saying. It is historically correct and accurate.

    Now I am getting tired of re-explaining as you simply don't want to understand at this point. Your reasons are still historically and factually irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Being in the majority is really inconsequential in regards to these dioramas and signs seeing that we all have rights to freedom of expression. And this was on PUBLIC property.
    Here we go again. It has nothing at all to do with being a majority of anything. If Buddhists became the majority of this country tomorrow and they kept the holiday as is. It would still be because of Christians who celebrated the birth of Jesus in the beginning, period. It was celebrated here in this country from day 1 when the first colony's won independence up until now. This is a fact. Has nothing at all to do with a majority of anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #513
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In Western Civilization including Europe and the US it is. No getting around that. You yourself said "Jesus was the "reason for the season". Although true," so which is it?
    No, I said the majority believes this. I did not say that it was the reason. I said for the majority it is the reason. This does not exclude the other reasons for the season, nor make them less important. And to make claims that suggest that Jesus is the only reason is an insult, whether you are able to see it from the point of view of someone who does not agree with the majority or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No I am not trying to claim that or anything close. It is the reason for the holiday in American culture. That is what I am saying. It is historically correct and accurate.

    Now I am getting tired of re-explaining as you simply don't want to understand at this point. Your reasons are still historically and factually irrelevant.
    No, American culture is a mixed culture. It does not say that just because the majority believes their reason for something is the only reason for something it does not exclude the other reasons for something.

    It is not historically correct to say that Jesus has been the only reason for the season. It has been the reason for a majority of people, but that still doesn't prevent others from taking offense when people make this claim or assumptions that others should view the "reason for the season" as Jesus when those others simply have other reasons for celebrating the season or who don't celebrate it at all.

    This has been my argument all along. Just because a majority celebrates during a certain time, for a certain reason, that doesn't mean that others cannot celebrate for their own, different reasons, nor does it mean that those in the minority should not take offense or feel insulted when one of the majority tries to claim the "reason" can only be that of the majority.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Here we go again. It has nothing at all to do with being a majority of anything. If Buddhists became the majority of this country tomorrow and they kept the holiday as is. It would still be because of Christians who celebrated the birth of Jesus in the beginning, period. It was celebrated here in this country from day 1 when the first colony's won independence up until now. This is a fact. Has nothing at all to do with a majority of anything.
    I'm sure plenty of people had different ideas about it back then too other than Jesus is the reason.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, I said the majority believes this. I did not say that it was the reason. I said for the majority it is the reason. This does not exclude the other reasons for the season, nor make them less important. And to make claims that suggest that Jesus is the only reason is an insult, whether you are able to see it from the point of view of someone who does not agree with the majority or not.
    Fact: From the Old English Cristes Męsse meaning the "mass of Christ"
    Fact: Christmas declared a legal holiday in U.S. in 1870
    Fact: The root of the holiday in the US is Christian.

    So you can argue that Christmas is not about Jesus or the reason. You would still be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, American culture is a mixed culture. It does not say that just because the majority believes their reason for something is the only reason for something it does not exclude the other reasons for something.

    It is not historically correct to say that Jesus has been the only reason for the season. It has been the reason for a majority of people, but that still doesn't prevent others from taking offense when people make this claim or assumptions that others should view the "reason for the season" as Jesus when those others simply have other reasons for celebrating the season or who don't celebrate it at all.

    This has been my argument all along. Just because a majority celebrates during a certain time, for a certain reason, that doesn't mean that others cannot celebrate for their own, different reasons, nor does it mean that those in the minority should not take offense or feel insulted when one of the majority tries to claim the "reason" can only be that of the majority.
    That AGAIN has nothing to do with the majority of anything. Neither is my argument. It is a simple fact. You can spout about majority all day long and it will not change the fact the holiday is rooted in Christian beliefs and Jesus, period. Nothing to be insulted about, nothing at all. Your argument is absolutely pointless to what I am saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I'm sure plenty of people had different ideas about it back then too other than Jesus is the reason.
    Irrelevant to anything I have said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #517
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Fact: From the Old English Cristes Męsse meaning the "mass of Christ"
    Fact: Christmas declared a legal holiday in U.S. in 1870
    Fact: The root of the holiday in the US is Christian.

    So you can argue that Christmas is not about Jesus or the reason. You would still be wrong.
    I am not wrong. You still have Hanukkah, you still have people who celebrate the winter solstice, and whether you agree with it or not, there are still people who celebrate Christmas without any regard to Jesus. They simply celebrate the holiday because it is traditional, but give no regard to Jesus at all. They don't have anything else to call it, so it stays Christmas.

    The reason we have a legal holiday is because of the fact that the majority of the citizens would have been taking that day off anyway (although notice how it took almost 100 years after we were a country for it to be even declared a legal holiday). Why not make it a holiday if very few are working that day anyway because of their own beliefs?

    And the whole season, would include all the holidays, not just Christmas. Afterall, these displays are being put up for the "season" at least a month before the holiday it is for. And many people follow many different traditions that have nothing to do with Jesus. Heck, the Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus, it would in fact be from Pagan tradition and can't even be explained for use in Christmas except as tradition, yet it is called a Christmas tree.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That AGAIN has nothing to do with the majority of anything. Neither is my argument. It is a simple fact. You can spout about majority all day long and it will not change the fact the holiday is rooted in Christian beliefs and Jesus, period. Nothing to be insulted about, nothing at all. Your argument is absolutely pointless to what I am saying.
    Yes there is something to be insulted by, whether you can see it or not. They are celebrating it for another reason, not Jesus. To them, especially those who have had their holidays from times long before Christianity, it is Christians who have stolen the holiday, not them. It is wrong to try to dismiss their feelings of insult because you can't see them but then hold up the Christians feelings of insult at being told to think about other people's points of view or to reconsider their beliefs as insulting because it is being said at "Christmastime".
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I am not wrong. You still have Hanukkah, you still have people who celebrate the winter solstice, and whether you agree with it or not, there are still people who celebrate Christmas without any regard to Jesus. They simply celebrate the holiday because it is traditional, but give no regard to Jesus at all. They don't have anything else to call it, so it stays Christmas.

    The reason we have a legal holiday is because of the fact that the majority of the citizens would have been taking that day off anyway (although notice how it took almost 100 years after we were a country for it to be even declared a legal holiday). Why not make it a holiday if very few are working that day anyway because of their own beliefs?

    And the whole season, would include all the holidays, not just Christmas. Afterall, these displays are being put up for the "season" at least a month before the holiday it is for. And many people follow many different traditions that have nothing to do with Jesus. Heck, the Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus, it would in fact be from Pagan tradition and can't even be explained for use in Christmas except as tradition, yet it is called a Christmas tree.





    Yes there is something to be insulted by, whether you can see it or not. They are celebrating it for another reason, not Jesus. To them, especially those who have had their holidays from times long before Christianity, it is Christians who have stolen the holiday, not them. It is wrong to try to dismiss their feelings of insult because you can't see them but then hold up the Christians feelings of insult at being told to think about other people's points of view or to reconsider their beliefs as insulting because it is being said at "Christmastime".
    You just aren't going to get it. Without Christians and in the end a Jesus, no Christmas holiday would exists, period. End of story. So it is nothing to get offended about, period. You can make another long winded post repeating yourself over again, and it will make no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #519
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You just aren't going to get it. Without Christians and in the end a Jesus, no Christmas holiday would exists, period. End of story. So it is nothing to get offended about, period. You can make another long winded post repeating yourself over again, and it will make no difference.
    It would exist. It may have been called something else, such as "winter solstice" or "saturnalia" or something else, but it likely would have existed as a celebration within that time period because it existed before Jesus.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Irrelevant to anything I have said.
    Okay if you say so

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