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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I'm fairly sure had the nativity scene been vandalized your position would be a fair bit different.
    And I am certain you are wrong. I don't care about the legality at all. Now do you have something to contribute or do you want to continue making the thread about me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes that is exactly what I said. Nice fallacy. Hyperbole at best.
    You said you didn't care about the illegal activity used to stop the LEGAL one. Your words not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not to my argument it doesn't. Live with it or keep repeating your self ad nauseum, it makes no difference to what I said.
    Hey, it's your words. You're the one making excuses for the illegal activity and even saying you don't care. The two aren't the same. When you do an ILLEGAL activity against a LEGAL one, the two don't compare.

    So free speech as long as it is free speech YOU like.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Religious people don't have a superior claim to "holidays" in general.
    Glad that's settled. Therefore, there's no basis for privileging the nativity scene over the display of the atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    But I do think that if its deemed there's a public interest to have a public celebration of the holiday season on public land, that its reasonable and tactful to expect that those seeking to use said grounds in such instances are going to CELEBRATE A HOLIDAY.
    That's just an expectation, nothing more. There's no ethical weight to that expectation. The atheists' desire to promote accuracy over superstition is no more, and NO LESS an appropriate use of the display space -- and "holiday" time -- than a nativity display.

    THAT's what I mean by the privileging of the religious display. The nativity display is NOT any more appropriate (or less) than the display of the atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is why I had no issue with "reasoned greetings" or "happy holidays" or "happy solstace" but had issue with the one depicting Santa and jesus and declaring them Myths or signs simply belittling the following of religions.
    There is NOTHING belittling about identifying myths as what they are...myths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Posting a nativity is a postiive expression of ones own faith not specificially, in any fashion, making reference or being aimed at any other holiday celebration.
    Irrelevant. There is no legal OR ethical requirement that someone's choice of "holiday" display line up with tradition. There's a real brick wall here. You and some other posters appear to subscribe to the premise that just because a space has been used a certain way for X amount of time, that such a usage is implicitly more appropriate than a non-traditional one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Posting a picture of Santa Claus and declaring it a myth is both a positive expression of ones own beliefs (that myths should be called out apparently), while at the same time is a negative expression AGAINST another persons beliefs regarding the celebration of the holidays. It is an action specifically being aimed at another persons views and celebrations and aimed in a negative and antagonistic way.
    Bull****...and endorsement of censorship to boot. The contradiction between myths and accuracy is built into myths and accuracy. It is absurdly hypocritical to posit that it is "antagonistic" to make an accurate statement which contradicts a myth, but (rather magically) it is not antagonistic to present a display of a mythical scene which contradicts an accurate statement. Either both are antagonistic, or neither.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My issue is not contrary views (though this highlights my point so well as you indicate PRECISELY my meaning about their attempts to turn something meant to be a celebratoin of the holidays into an ideological battle ground). My issue is purposefully targetted antagonistic views being placed in a locatoin they have no tactful basis for being in.
    This is the most hysterical response of all, and once again one which privileges the nativity display yet again by implying that it must receive special insulation from contrary views. YOUR distinction seems to be one in which explicit (open) acknowledgement of the contradiction between myth and accuracy is "antagonistic", but IMPLIED contradiction is just fine. That's completely arbitrary, because the perceived "volume" of the contradiction will be experienced differently from person to person. To the hardcore bible-thumpers, for example, ANY form of contradiction is perceived as disrespect -- if not a frontal assault -- upon everything they hold sacred. You could post a picture of Darwin -- with no caption at all -- next to the nativity scene, and they'd respond to it as though you'd pissed on their mother's grave.

    The rational and consistent answer to such arbitrary nonsense is to anchor the standard to actual harm (instead of taking offense vs. not taking offense, which will be a standard that's different for every individual observer). A display which extended beyond its allotted area (thus blocking the view of neighboring displays) would be DIRECT harm (via interference) to the use of the other displays. A display which doesn't march in ideological lock-step with the dogmas promoted by a neighboring display is not under any obligation -- legally OR ethically -- to tiptoe around such neighbors, or to second-guess choice of content in any manner (beyond the basic obvious things like open calls to demonize or commit violence against X group).
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    You said you didn't care about the illegal activity used to stop the LEGAL one. Your words not mine.
    No I did not. Please point out where I said anything even close?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Hey, it's your words. You're the one making excuses for the illegal activity and even saying you don't care.
    Please point out in any of my posts where I said anything at all about the vandalism being justified? In fact I said the exact opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    So free speech as long as it is free speech YOU like.
    Yes that is exactly what I said. [/sarcasm]

    If you have nothing better than fallacy's, you mite as well move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No I did not. Please point out where I said anything even close?
    Right here:

    I don't care about the legality at all.
    Your words, not mine.

    You equated both as the same thing. They are not. PERIOD. When one is legal and the other is not, they are not the same.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Right here:

    Your words, not mine.
    You are going to be that dishonest and just out and out lie? That post you cut that little piece out of is out of context and in reference to someone and something completely different. It has nothing to do with what you stated. It also came AFTER you made your dishonest accusation about my statement.

    Wow, just wow.

    Here is what I have been saying...

    I am saying illegal or not they both contributed and are both stupid. I don't care about which was legal or not. It has nothing at all to do with what I am saying. - Blackdog

    Now if you are done trying desperately to make my argument into something it's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    You equated both as the same thing. They are not. PERIOD. When one is legal and the other is not, they are not the same.
    The legality is irreverent to my argument and again has nothing to do with it. Now since you have lost all credibility at this point, I will say good day.

    Nice job dodging and cutting out the rest of my response. Another just wow.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 11-21-12 at 04:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    What is the deal with some of these atheist groups? I understand the issue of a captive audience in schools or something of that effect. I actually agree with that. I wouldn't want my kid to be forced to listen to an Islamic or Buddhist sermon in school when he's supposed to be there to learn. However, things such as this are ridiculous in my eyes. Why do some atheists feel the need to put a rebuttal scene up? What difference does it make if the Nativity is there? It's not hurting anyone, you don't have to look at it, and if you or your child accidentally sees it, it's not going to ***gasp*** suddenly convert you. Atheists don't believe there's God. Got it. Why in the world do some of them feel the need to make everyone who does believe in God feel stupid? I've not heard, not once, a good reason that atheists do this. They never say "we want to accomplish X" or "we feel X would happen if we convinced everyone there was no God" then I would see a purpose. Again, I get the not wanting kids to be proselytized to. I don't understand the incessant need of atheists to push religion out of the public eye but putting their beliefs in its place . Isn't doing that exactly what the atheists claim they are against? Forcing your beliefs on someone?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    I think its insecurity...the secret fear that they just might be wrong.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    What is the deal with some of these atheist groups? I understand the issue of a captive audience in schools or something of that effect. I actually agree with that. I wouldn't want my kid to be forced to listen to an Islamic or Buddhist sermon in school when he's supposed to be there to learn. However, things such as this are ridiculous in my eyes. Why do some atheists feel the need to put a rebuttal scene up? What difference does it make if the Nativity is there? It's not hurting anyone, you don't have to look at it, and if you or your child accidentally sees it, it's not going to ***gasp*** suddenly convert you. Atheists don't believe there's God. Got it. Why in the world do some of them feel the need to make everyone who does believe in God feel stupid? I've not heard, not once, a good reason that atheists do this. They never say "we want to accomplish X" or "we feel X would happen if we convinced everyone there was no God" then I would see a purpose. Again, I get the not wanting kids to be proselytized to. I don't understand the incessant need of atheists to push religion out of the public eye but putting their beliefs in its place . Isn't doing that exactly what the atheists claim they are against? Forcing your beliefs on someone?
    why do the Christians insist on publicly promoting their belief system
    attempting to convince people that the virgin birth story is possible
    why do that not simply take comfort in the knowledge that their beliefs work for them without having the need to expose their belief system to others

    so, why are atheists, or wiccans, or followers of shinto, or subscribers of tao, or any other non-mainstream belief system not entitled to the SAME opportunity to share the stories of their belief system as the Christians feel entitled to promote
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    My anger is not displaced. Both party's were idiot's. Fact is it could have just been some children who did the vandalizing because they have Christian parents. Fact is we don't know. So yes both party's are to blame, period.
    People exercising rights are rarely at fault. Your anger is misplaced and it seems to be rooted in your desire to blame atheists for expressing themselves. Freedom...learn to live with it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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