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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

  1. #131
    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    You're wrong. Dix purposely recruited a bunch of his atheist buddies to enter into the lottery just to stop the nativity display from being shown. That is a take over. They didn't stop anybody from visiting the display, they just made the area arguably more hostile to go visit.

    Look, legally they are within their rights. Doesn't make their moves anything less than dick moves.
    EMPIRICAL, FACTUAL question:

    YES OR NO:

    Has there been any evidence presented to indicate that the atheists in question illegally rigged the lottery for display spots?

    Was the nativity display prevented from being displayed, at any time, by the DIRECT action of the atheists who set up their own display?

    ANSWER to both: NO.

    Your stance on this is hysterical. The atheist display WAS, in fact, vandalized (someone interfered with THEIR right to display their message).

    The nativity display was NOT vandalized. It was ultimately removed along with all other displays in response to selective vandalism by city government order.

    This is a classic dogmatic revision of reality: the atheist display was in fact the one violated, not the nativity scene.

    After further review of the article, the entitlement and oblivious privilege involved is even worse than I expected.

    The proponents of the nativity display are whining like little crybabies because they used to not have to deal with many others seeking a display spot. This time, however, instead of their usual FOURTEEN spots, they "only" got two. BooHoo.

    Guess what, folks? Welcome to life. Grow a god damn spine already. Newsflash: there are other people in the world. Learn to take turns.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  2. #132
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    EMPIRICAL, FACTUAL question:

    YES OR NO:

    Has there been any evidence presented to indicate that the atheists in question illegally rigged the lottery for display spots?

    Was the nativity display prevented from being displayed, at any time, by the DIRECT action of the atheists who set up their own display?

    ANSWER to both: NO.

    Your stance on this is hysterical. The atheist display WAS, in fact, vandalized (someone interfered with THEIR right to display their message).

    The nativity display was NOT vandalized. It was ultimately removed along with all other displays in response to selective vandalism by city government order.

    This is a classic dogmatic revision of reality: the atheist display was in fact the one violated, not the nativity scene.

    After further review of the article, the entitlement and oblivious privilege involved is even worse than I expected.

    The proponents of the nativity display are whining like little crybabies because they used to not have to deal with many others seeking a display spot. This time, however, instead of their usual FOURTEEN spots, they "only" got two. BooHoo.

    Guess what, folks? Welcome to life. Grow a god damn spine already. Newsflash: there are other people in the world. Learn to take turns.
    The ONLY reason Dix wanted to take over those spots was merely because he was offended by the nativity display (Oh my!). This isn't about taking turns, or fairness, it was a takeover of a benign christmas holiday. That's not hysteria, that is fact. Sure, he did it under the guise of free speech, but to ignore the intent behind it is ridiculous. It was petty and pathetic. Dix is essentially the Grinch and just stole the Whovillians Christmas tree. Congrats on the big victory.
    Hail to the King baby!

  3. #133
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Two atheists arguing over an action taken by other atheists.
    both agree that the other atheists were within their rights to do what they did
    One says the intent behind it showed dickishness
    the other says - the intenet is not known and should not be judged.

    One wishes to inject common sense and good manners into the discussion
    the other feels that if an atheist did it - then I shall defend it.

    Guess who is who?

    I am judging - it showed dickishness.
    Time flies like an arrow; fruitflies like a banana. - Groucho

  4. #134
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    I won't respond to the "tradition" nonsense, except to point out that arguing in favor of tradition-for-tradition's-sake is little more than an ad populum fallacy.
    Good, because I wasn't arguing in favor of tradition for traditions sake.



    Hmm...so in order to NOT be an dick/asshole/take-your-pick-of-derogatory-terms, he should have afforded special protection to an obvious and highly visible expression of religious reverence by specifically refraining from placing his message in an context where he quite reasonably expected it to get the most exposure?

    Sorry, that just doesn't compute UNLESS you subscribe to the notion that the religious display is owed some kind of special protection.

    Point blank: There is no right to insulation from contrary views.
    I also wasn't arguing in favor of special protection of the religious.




    I agree, but from the completely opposite stance. I find it pathetic that such an obvious case of asserting a right of special protection from critique isn't recognized as such. The "he didn't do anything illegal, but he was being a dick" view boils down, one way or another, to arguing that either religious displays have a superior claim on public space, or (less flagrant but still irrational and authoritarian) that certain ways of doing things should be deferred to **solely because they've been that way for a while**.

    Pardon me if I consider both of those to be bull****.
    Again, not arguing for any special protection, just pointing out the fact that Vix and his friends were being assholes. It's a very simple yet accurate assertion based on the fact that atheism has nothing to do with religion or religious holidays yet they deliberately got together to try to derail something that held a lot of meaning for other people and their families. I could call it vindictive but I think just calling it a dick move is more accurate
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

  5. #135
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    The ONLY reason Dix wanted to take over those spots was merely because he was offended by the nativity display (Oh my!). This isn't about taking turns, or fairness, it was a takeover of a benign christmas holiday. That's not hysteria, that is fact. Sure, he did it under the guise of free speech, but to ignore the intent behind it is ridiculous. It was petty and pathetic. Dix is essentially the Grinch and just stole the Whovillians Christmas tree. Congrats on the big victory.
    Except you're factually wrong.

    The presence of the atheist displays did not stop the nativity display.

    Try to get this through your head:

    THE PUBLIC DISPLAY PLACE IS JUST THAT...PUBLIC. IT DOESN'T BELONG TO THE NATIVITY GROUP OR THE ATHEISTS.

    You are confusing loss of dominance and erosion of PRIVILEGE with "takeover" or real loss.


    You seem to be missing two rather glaring points here:

    1) The nativity display was up for around 60 years straight because no other party exercised their EQUAL right to request a display space (NOT because it belongs to the nativity group -- it DOESN'T-- and NOT because designation of the area as a "holiday" space confers any superior claim on the part of the nativity group --it DOESN'T) ;

    2) Any and all speculations about intent of the atheists are completely irrelevant, because they don't owe it to you -- or to the nativity folks -- to have any particular specific intent in the first place. If they wanted to put up a bunch of displays of random objects, that would be every bit as legitimate (not just legally, mind you, but ethically) a use of the space as using it for a nativity scene. If you maintain the opposite -- that the nativity scene is owed some kind of deference, then that boils down to either rejecting the separation doctrine, or asserting supremacy of tradition-for-tradition's sake.
    Last edited by cmakaioz; 11-20-12 at 07:01 PM.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Can't necessarily blame anyone of faith for vandalizing the atheist's signs. Could have been other atheists for all we know. They clearly like to do things to be noticed why would an atheist post anti God signs? To what purpose other than to say "Look at me! I'm bold and progressive!"

    but the simplest solution would be for the city to cancel Christmas altogether. No retail bump, no vacation days, everybody back to work. Just another day in California.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    Can't necessarily blame anyone of faith for vandalizing the atheist's signs. Could have been other atheists for all we know. They clearly like to do things to be noticed why would an atheist post anti God signs? To what purpose other than to say "Look at me! I'm bold and progressive!"

    but the simplest solution would be for the city to cancel Christmas altogether. No retail bump, no vacation days, everybody back to work. Just another day in California.

    Isn't that just special! So xians have the 'right' in your opinion to cause damage to private property if they feel offended by what they see? That is quite close to the argument used by some women haters who will excuse rape because the victim was "asking for it" by wearing sexy clothes or Pat Robertson saying we need to excuse Gen Petraeus behaviour because he's a man.

    Step back from the keyboard and think about what you just posted.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  8. #138
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Except you're factually wrong.

    The presence of the atheist displays did not stop the nativity display.

    Try to get this through your head:

    THE PUBLIC DISPLAY PLACE IS JUST THAT...PUBLIC. IT DOESN'T BELONG TO THE NATIVITY GROUP OR THE ATHEISTS.

    You are confusing loss of dominance and erosion of PRIVILEGE with "takeover" or real loss.


    You seem to be missing two rather glaring points here:

    1) The nativity display was up for around 60 years straight because no other party exercised their EQUAL right to request a display space (NOT because it belongs to the nativity group -- it DOESN'T-- and NOT because designation of the area as a "holiday" space confers any superior claim on the part of the nativity group --it DOESN'T) ;

    2) Any and all speculations about intent of the atheists are completely irrelevant, because they don't owe it to you -- or to the nativity folks -- to have any particular specific intent in the first place. If they wanted to put up a bunch of displays of random objects, that would be every bit as legitimate (not just legally, mind you, but ethically) a use of the space as using it for a nativity scene. If you maintain the opposite -- that the nativity scene is owed some kind of deference, then that boils down to either rejecting the separation doctrine, or asserting supremacy of tradition-for-tradition's sake.
    My my, who's being hysterical? I am not arguing about who owns what. I am not saying that the nativity scene was owed anything, or that the atheist owe me anything. What I am saying is the ruining a 60 year christmas tradition to put up anti-religious signs is a vindictive dick move and any person with any type of morals wouldn't do it. As an atheist, it makes me upset that this is how they chose to represent us.
    Hail to the King baby!

  9. #139
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    These atheist are what give us a bad name. You can't stand to see a nativity scene? Really? You going to get Christmas banned altogether? The whole holiday is based on pagan foundations, so to fight any part of the holiday is to effectively fight the entire holiday. It's silly, it's petty, and it's not what any decent atheist would/should do. Pathetic.
    Thank you from a Christian.
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  10. #140
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    It is my assumption that they were doing it because they dicks. Others think they were doing it to spread their message. Difference of opinion, that's how arguments get started.
    Perchance. Yet what I see here boarders on the self-loathing. Sure maybe the atheists were dicks. But it's a free country and it doesn't mean the rest of us must be as well. The issue here.was not some atheists running their mouths but rather the vandalism. Sure people are dicks sometimes, but in a free society that is to be expected.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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