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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

  1. #121
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    Let me be more explicit the - no one is questioning the atheists rights
    then why was this question taken before the courts (only to lose)
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    tol·er·ance
    noun
    1.
    a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

    Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?
    YES.

    Also, once again...it wouldn't even matter, because it would be a flagrant violation of the separation doctrine to give religious narratives (of any stripe) SPECIAL or superior precedence to use of the display areas. "Holiday" in the CIVIC sense must necessarily display no special deference to any religious doctrine.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  3. #123
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, tell us how intent matters within this thread
    If the intent is to smear should that be allowed? There are laws against libel and slander. Free speech does not give one the right to slander anyone else.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  4. #124
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    There's no such thing as a right -- legally or ethically -- to insulation from contrary views.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  5. #125
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    then why was this question taken before the courts (only to lose)
    Ahh, it seems you need to refer to the OP

    never mind, I will quote from it

    "The committee, comprising churches that are behind the nativity display, is suing in federal court, claiming the city violated their freedom of speech by stopping the holiday tradition"

    No one is suing over the atheists right to put up their own displays.
    Time flies like an arrow; fruitflies like a banana. - Groucho

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    There's no such thing as a right -- legally or ethically -- to insulation from contrary views.
    Legally most certainly there is nothing wrong with contrary views.

    Ethically? I'll have to call BS on that one. There is a time and a place for everything. Is it ethical for West Borro Batist Church to hold thier protests at a gay soldiers funeral? It is most definiately legal. But ethical? Hell no. Everyone crys out against them for doing so. So why is it that when someone posts negative things about religion during a time when that religion is celebrating its holiday its OK?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    Ahh, it seems you need to refer to the OP

    never mind, I will quote from it

    "The committee, comprising churches that are behind the nativity display, is suing in federal court, claiming the city violated their freedom of speech by stopping the holiday tradition"

    No one is suing over the atheists right to put up their own displays.
    so suing to protect their perceived violation of freedom of speech was not a court action seeking to defend rights?
    who knew
    thanks for the edification [/s]
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  8. #128
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    It's your (and my, and anyone's) prerogative and ability to judge, but that doesn't mean we're owed anything according to that judgment.



    The atheist display reflected what that atheist wanted to express during that holiday time. He is not obligated legally OR ethically to tiptoe around your completely arbitrary implication that religious messages have more of a right to that public space.



    The atheist message is no more or less appropriate for a holiday display than anything else, including an ad for the local plumber, random art, or a birdfeeder.

    This seems to be the sticking point...ONE of the following must be true of your position:

    Either:
    a) you maintain -- without explanation or warrant -- that the obviously religious nativity scene has some kind of special and superior claim to the use of public real estate for the holiday displays, such that it must be given special insulation from any contrary viewpoints or expression (which would run afoul of the separation doctrine);

    or

    b) you DON'T endorse special protection, in which case ANYONE else with ANY message (short of fighting words/open calls to break the law) must, by logical consistency, be afforded the same opportunity for using the display space.



    Once AGAIN, stop with the hysterical bull****. There has been no evidence of any such takeover. If I sit next to someone on the bus or the subway, and keep my elbows in, I have not taken over THEIR seat.



    On this point you are flat out wrong. Intolerance would be attempting to stop a religious symbol or message from even having a space at all. Ironically, it is YOUR position which is turning out to be intolerant. If we did it by your preference, the atheist display shouldn't be granted fair and equal opportunity for exposure (or at the very least, should be irrationally regarded as inappropriate or provocative despite its very mild content).



    See above. Either you play fair -- without any special protection for religious messages and symbols -- or you are actually in favor of special exemptions and protections for religious expression.



    No one is contesting the right to judge. The point is the glaring hypocrisy. You object to a very mild, tame, indirect critique of a religious symbol, but then you insist that the critique itself (the atheist display) must be open to judgement.



    You keep repeating, over and over, the contention that the atheist display somehow constitutes "being a dick", and yet thus far you haven't made so much as a gesture towards explaining what appears to be a massive double standard.



    REALITY CHECK: The atheists who set up their display did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop people from visiting the nativity display.

    Do you realize that? NOTHING.

    Your posts are becoming hysterical (not as in funny, but as in responding based upon raw emotion instead of facts).
    You're wrong. Dix purposely recruited a bunch of his atheist buddies to enter into the lottery just to stop the nativity display from being shown. That is a take over. They didn't stop anybody from visiting the display, they just made the area arguably more hostile to go visit.

    Look, legally they are within their rights. Doesn't make their moves anything less than dick moves.
    Hail to the King baby!

  9. #129
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    I won't respond to the "tradition" nonsense, except to point out that arguing in favor of tradition-for-tradition's-sake is little more than an ad populum fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    What he did was pick the time of the year when he knew Christians would be celebrating their traditions and the place where they went with their families to celebrate it. That's what makes him an asshole.
    Hmm...so in order to NOT be an dick/asshole/take-your-pick-of-derogatory-terms, he should have afforded special protection to an obvious and highly visible expression of religious reverence by specifically refraining from placing his message in an context where he quite reasonably expected it to get the most exposure?

    Sorry, that just doesn't compute UNLESS you subscribe to the notion that the religious display is owed some kind of special protection.

    Point blank: There is no right to insulation from contrary views.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    *
    It's kind of pathetic actually.
    I agree, but from the completely opposite stance. I find it pathetic that such an obvious case of asserting a right of special protection from critique isn't recognized as such. The "he didn't do anything illegal, but he was being a dick" view boils down, one way or another, to arguing that either religious displays have a superior claim on public space, or (less flagrant but still irrational and authoritarian) that certain ways of doing things should be deferred to **solely because they've been that way for a while**.

    Pardon me if I consider both of those to be bull****.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  10. #130
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so suing to protect their perceived violation of freedom of speech was not a court action seeking to defend rights?
    who knew
    thanks for the edification [/s]
    I said "no one is questioning the atheists rights" meaning their right to display their message.

    You said "then why was this question taken before the courts (only to lose) ?"

    I pointed out that the comittee of churches is suing the city. So the lawsuit does not directly involve the atheists

    then you reply with -

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so suing to protect their perceived violation of freedom of speech was not a court action seeking to defend rights?
    who knew
    thanks for the edification [/s]
    I am at a loss. I am unable to comprehend for you.

    And on top off all that - this started by one sentence that was a little too general and that sentence had little to do with the point I was making.
    Time flies like an arrow; fruitflies like a banana. - Groucho

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