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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

  1. #111
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No issue with either of those displays, and they're right in line with the type of thing I said I'd have no issues with because they're actually attempting to utilize the area for the purpose it's been designated for....aka holiday celebrations.

    Those who vandalized them are adolescent buffoons who should be ashamed of themselves.
    Another sane voice in the thread.

    This isn't about rights. No one is questioning anyones rights.

    It is about common sense. A 60 year tradition where families can walk through the park and enjoy various Christmas or Seasonal displays.
    ..

    Wait - Wait, there is a display that goes against my atheist principles. I know. I will call my buddies. Next year we will get as many spots as we can and we will put our own messages up. We have rights. No one can stop us. Plus we will make all the newspapers. This War on Christmas stuff always gets good press.

    I think in this instance the term 'dick' that was used as a descriptive, was apropos
    Last edited by rjay; 11-20-12 at 05:38 PM.
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you have confused 'tolerating' with 'accepting'
    In this context it seems these definitions best suit each word:

    Tolerate: to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit.

    Accept: to accommodate or reconcile oneself to

    Attempting to hinder, by putting up non-topical, if not directly adversarial displays, or prohibit, by attempting to get a specific display banned/entire celebration banned, the presence or practice of utilizing public ground to celebrate the holiday seasons is by definition not showing "tolerance".

    (note...neither is vandalizing displays of others, especially those that are being tolerant and acting in accordance to the activities theme)

    Now, you can say that "just because it's not tolerant doesn't mean it's wrong" or you could say "Its something that SHOULDN'T be tolerated" and those would be legitimate arguments....but it's hard to suggest that if you're doing something similar to what I stated above that one is being "tolerant", let alone "accepting".

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    Another sane voice in the thread.

    This isn't about rights. No one is questioning anyones rights.

    It is about common sense. A 60 year tradition where families can walk through the park and enjoy various Christmas or Seasonal displays.
    ..

    Wait - Wait, there is a display that goes against my atheist principles. I know. I will call my buddies. Next year we will get as many spots as we can and we will put our own messages up. We have rights. No one can stop us. Plus we will make all the papers. This War on Christmas stuff always gets good press.

    I think in this instance the term 'dick' that was used as a descriptive was apropos
    That's been my message every year.

    I don't give a **** about a so called "war on christmas". I don't care if I don't see one nativity all christmas season long. I don't care if a store wants to tell me "happy holidays" or if they want to tell my "merry christmas" or if they want to say "Happy 'we're going to take your money' time of the year!"

    I don't care about a war on christmas. But I'm all for a "war on people being dicks". Or a war on "people so stuck up their own asses that that they can't exercise some common ****ing courtesy". I'm all for that war.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court



    Just so I get this right, these churches are suing the government claiming their rights to freedom of speech were violated because the government wouldn't provide them a soapbox and place in the park?

    Found this gem lower down...



    So the city ended the practice because the religulous were vandalizing the other displays.
    The true hateful nature of Atheism shows it's ugly head again.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    Another sane voice in the thread.

    This isn't about rights. No one is questioning anyones rights.

    It is about common sense. A 60 year tradition where families can walk through the park and enjoy various Christmas or Seasonal displays.
    ..

    Wait - Wait, there is a display that goes against my atheist principles. I know. I will call my buddies. Next year we will get as many spots as we can and we will put our own messages up. We have rights. No one can stop us. Plus we will make all the newspapers. This War on Christmas stuff always gets good press.

    I think in this instance the term 'dick' that was used as a descriptive, was apropos
    actually, you are wrong
    read the thread title again
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    tol·er·ance
    noun
    1.
    a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

    Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?
    I know it wasn't addressed to me, but my general thought...

    Arguably, in a general sense, sure.

    Placing it up in the midst of an area supposedly being used for "holiday" decorations and displays...no, not at all.

    No more than I'd find a "Holiday Display" that was nothing but a depiction of Atheists burning in hell to be "tolerant" or appropriate for a holiday celebration decoration.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Actually, that's not pretense. NEITHER of us knows their intent...but that's a moot point because their intent doesn't @#$@#%@ matter.
    Actually intent does matter. Even in a court of law. In libel cases it is the difference between a successful case or a case that is lost. And in murder cases it is the difference between manslaughter and murder one.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually intent does matter. Even in a court of law. In libel cases it is the difference between a successful case or a case that is lost. And in murder cases it is the difference between manslaughter and murder one.
    ok, tell us how intent matters within this thread
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    I absolutely have the right to judge if it was good timing or not, that's my prerogative.
    It's your (and my, and anyone's) prerogative and ability to judge, but that doesn't mean we're owed anything according to that judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    It is the whole basis of the display so how can it be irrelevant.
    The atheist display reflected what that atheist wanted to express during that holiday time. He is not obligated legally OR ethically to tiptoe around your completely arbitrary implication that religious messages have more of a right to that public space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    The city has been giving out these passes for 60 years just so holiday displays can be put up. Seems pretty relevant to me.
    The atheist message is no more or less appropriate for a holiday display than anything else, including an ad for the local plumber, random art, or a birdfeeder.

    This seems to be the sticking point...ONE of the following must be true of your position:

    Either:
    a) you maintain -- without explanation or warrant -- that the obviously religious nativity scene has some kind of special and superior claim to the use of public real estate for the holiday displays, such that it must be given special insulation from any contrary viewpoints or expression (which would run afoul of the separation doctrine);

    or

    b) you DON'T endorse special protection, in which case ANYONE else with ANY message (short of fighting words/open calls to break the law) must, by logical consistency, be afforded the same opportunity for using the display space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    Taking over a Christian nativity display
    Once AGAIN, stop with the hysterical bull****. There has been no evidence of any such takeover. If I sit next to someone on the bus or the subway, and keep my elbows in, I have not taken over THEIR seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    just to spread your anti-religious message is not being tolerant of the other religion.
    On this point you are flat out wrong. Intolerance would be attempting to stop a religious symbol or message from even having a space at all. Ironically, it is YOUR position which is turning out to be intolerant. If we did it by your preference, the atheist display shouldn't be granted fair and equal opportunity for exposure (or at the very least, should be irrationally regarded as inappropriate or provocative despite its very mild content).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    There is a time and a place for everything.
    See above. Either you play fair -- without any special protection for religious messages and symbols -- or you are actually in favor of special exemptions and protections for religious expression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    I have every right to judge. They put themselves out there in the public. By doing that, they allow themselves and their message to be judged by the public (i.e. me)
    No one is contesting the right to judge. The point is the glaring hypocrisy. You object to a very mild, tame, indirect critique of a religious symbol, but then you insist that the critique itself (the atheist display) must be open to judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    I don't, I subscribe to not being a dick and ruining a special 60 year holiday tradition.
    You keep repeating, over and over, the contention that the atheist display somehow constitutes "being a dick", and yet thus far you haven't made so much as a gesture towards explaining what appears to be a massive double standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    Tell that to the people who have visited that nativity display for the last 60 years.
    REALITY CHECK: The atheists who set up their display did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop people from visiting the nativity display.

    Do you realize that? NOTHING.

    Your posts are becoming hysterical (not as in funny, but as in responding based upon raw emotion instead of facts).
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  10. #120
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    actually, you are wrong
    read the thread title again
    Let me be more explicit the - no one is questioning the atheists rights
    Time flies like an arrow; fruitflies like a banana. - Groucho

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