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Thread: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

  1. #101
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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by JRog View Post
    This is completely anecdotal, but in my hometown the city allowed other faiths to put up holiday displays alongside the christian nativity. Within the first week of the Wiccan pentagram being put up, local christian vandals ripped it down with a chain and pickup truck in the middle of the night. Then they complained that other religions wanted a war on Christmas. To me it seems very opposite, that the war is really a fight for exclusivity of christian religious displays on public property. If a municipality is going to selectively allow only certain religions to display their religious symbols on public property, then they shouldn't allow any.
    And those pulling down a pentagram are in the wrong as well. Vandalism of someone else's stuff is wrong, regardless of their reasons.

    That said...again...public land set aside for the public to use for celebration winter based holiday's should be used for that. If you want to celebrate hanukkah, kwanzaa, the winter solstice, or anything else instead of Christmas....no problem. Get your space and put up whatever thing you want. More power to you, and to hell with those bitching about it.

    What I DO have issue with is people who specifically attempt to grab said spots and then go out of their way to specifically put up displays that have NOTHING to do with the celebration of a winter holiday and are meant to do nothing but essentially purposefully troll those who are coming to the location specifically to look at holiday decorations. If you want to be a jackass and try to protest "christian exclusivity of religious displays" then be my guess, it's your right. It's also my right to think by doing so you're being a thick headed jackass that is doing more harm to your cause then good and are actually the individual being the most selfish and egotistical in the situation because you're purposefully going out of your way to bother or hamper the holiday activities of the vast majority of the public that DOESN'T give two ****s about either side's pissing match over religion and just wants to ****ing see some lights and pretty displays.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    You can pretend like all of them said Happy Solstice or joy and peace but it's just not truthful. It's the ones that were there solely as an anti-religious message that I have a problem with.
    Let's be concrete. SHOW me the ACTUAL signs you object to.

    I'm about 99% positive that they'd only be considered inappropriate IF you're privileging religious content over everything else.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    don't forget others with non-xian beliefs are also paying taxes for that public park. In other parts of the country where towns tried the balanced approach, some folks simply couldn't deal with it.

    Here are a couple more of those infamous Atheist signs from the park in Santa Monica

    Attachment 67138318

    Attachment 67138319


    Yep - really hateful stuff
    No issue with either of those displays, and they're right in line with the type of thing I said I'd have no issues with because they're actually attempting to utilize the area for the purpose it's been designated for....aka holiday celebrations.

    Those who vandalized them are adolescent buffoons who should be ashamed of themselves.

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    So here is an image of the atheists diorama:

    Attachment 67138308

    I have no problem with it. They are just expressing their opinion like the Christians are.
    And this is one I would have an issue with in terms of being put up as part of an area being used for holiday celebrations.

    This is nothing but an attempt to troll in real life. It's not celebrating any holiday, it' would sticking with the purpose of the land being open to public displays, it's about a group arrogantly and in an assholish way attempting to annoy and thumb their nose at those who are coming to the location in hopes of seeing things related to it's intended purpose (IE holiday decorations.

    "See Jimmy, that's a menorah. That's part of what the Jewish faith uses to celebrate Hanukkah. And see that decorative mat with various things on it? That's a symbol of Kwanzaa celebrating African American culture. And there's a manger, depicting the birth of Jesus Christ which Christians celebrate on Christmas. Oh, and there's a banner from athiests telling you that Santa and Jesus are like the Devil and aren't real. Oh, and there's Frosty and rudolph!"

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    It's not your place or mine to judge good or bad timing. Logically speaking, it makes perfect sense for someone who'd like people to examine their belief systems to set up such a display at the same time and place as an obvious symbol of such beliefs.
    I absolutely have the right to judge if it was good timing or not, that's my prerogative.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    The whole "season" and "holiday" crap is completely irrelevant. The nativity display (or ANY holiday display, for that matter) isn't owed any kind of special deference.
    It is the whole basis of the display so how can it be irrelevant. The city has been giving out these passes for 60 years just so holiday displays can be put up. Seems pretty relevant to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    They did no such thing. Since their display was NOT a message of intolerance in the first place, this is complete bull**** on your part.
    Taking over a Christian nativity display just to spread your anti-religious message is not being tolerant of the other religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Once AGAIN: calling upon people to examine their beliefs is not intolerance, or attack, or an infringement in any way upon them.
    There is a time and a place for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    It's not your place to decide or judge their message or their intent in terms of it's alleged or imagined relationship to the nativity scene, because NONE of the parties involved owe any kind of special kid-glove treatment or deference in the first place.
    I have every right to judge. They put themselves out there in the public. By doing that, they allow themselves and their message to be judged by the public (i.e. me)

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Unless you subscribe (as you seem to) to some variation of the principle that religious displays and beliefs deserve special exemptions and protections with regards to speech, then the nativity display is no more (and no less) deserving of the protections and requirements demanded of any other publicly displayed content, whether it be a calmly reasoned but passionate opinion essay, an ad for the local plumber, a YouTube video of kittens doing something cute, or a random piece of abstract art.
    I don't, I subscribe to not being a dick and ruining a special 60 year holiday tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    In simplest terms: the nativity display is NOT special.
    Tell that to the people who have visited that nativity display for the last 60 years.
    Hail to the King baby!

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    I absolutely have the right to judge if it was good timing or not, that's my prerogative.



    It is the whole basis of the display so how can it be irrelevant. The city has been giving out these passes for 60 years just so holiday displays can be put up. Seems pretty relevant to me.



    Taking over a Christian nativity display just to spread your anti-religious message is not being tolerant of the other religion.



    There is a time and a place for everything.



    I have every right to judge. They put themselves out there in the public. By doing that, they allow themselves and their message to be judged by the public (i.e. me)



    I don't, I subscribe to not being a dick and ruining a special 60 year holiday tradition.



    Tell that to the people who have visited that nativity display for the last 60 years.
    you have confused 'tolerating' with 'accepting'
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And this is one I would have an issue with in terms of being put up as part of an area being used for holiday celebrations.

    This is nothing but an attempt to troll in real life. It's not celebrating any holiday, it' would sticking with the purpose of the land being open to public displays, it's about a group arrogantly and in an assholish way attempting to annoy and thumb their nose at those who are coming to the location in hopes of seeing things related to it's intended purpose (IE holiday decorations.

    "See Jimmy, that's a menorah. That's part of what the Jewish faith uses to celebrate Hanukkah. And see that decorative mat with various things on it? That's a symbol of Kwanzaa celebrating African American culture. And there's a manger, depicting the birth of Jesus Christ which Christians celebrate on Christmas. Oh, and there's a banner from athiests telling you that Santa and Jesus are like the Devil and aren't real. Oh, and there's Frosty and rudolph!"
    This. Exactly.
    Hail to the King baby!

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you have confused 'tolerating' with 'accepting'
    tol·er·ance
    noun
    1.
    a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

    Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?
    Hail to the King baby!

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    tol·er·ance
    noun
    1.
    a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

    Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?

    yes

    what did i win?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    True...but they have neither the need nor the obligation to REFRAIN from doing so, and those who ARE religious are NOT owed any special deference or insulation from critique.

    It doesn't matter if the nativity had been on display for 6 years or 6 minutes or 6 centuries. It doesn't matter if little kids were involved or not. All that nonsense is completely irrelevant.



    It MAY, but (just as with the other hysterical speculations), it may simply be a matter of relevance. The use of the PUBLIC SPACE to host a nativity scene is no better or worse than using it to pose a question or challenge about the beliefs related to that scene.



    I don't see anyone arguing that it was illegal, so that too is irrelevant.

    As for him being an asshole...what on earth is your basis for that assessment, if not your privileging of the religious folks who put up the nativity scene?

    For example, if there was an atheist display put up first, and then some religious folks put up a nativity scene afterwards, would the folks who set up the nativity scene suddenly become the assholes?

    The nativity scene isn't owed any special deference or veneration. The atheist display was quite mild. Folks in the U.S. often seem to have this completely unwarranted notion that no longer tiptoeing around religious displays is tantamount to aggressively mocking them or going out of one's way to provoke hostility.

    If the atheist display was something genuinely obnoxious (like a sign saying "Mary was a whore! HAHAHAHA!"), then...MAYBE I could see calling him an asshole. But simply putting up a display inviting people to examine their views...how is that in any way ass-hole-ish?
    Traditions are an important part of human life and social interactions especially on the familial level but also within communities. The length of the tradition is also highly significant if something has been passed down from generation to generation it's going to hold a higher emotional value and just overall importance for the people celebrating it.

    No one here is saying that it's wrong for someone to express their views or that it is illegal also important here since the original post contained an article involving legal claims in federal court, which is why I mentioned it.

    It's not a stretch of any kind to conclude that what Vix did was in fact a dick move. There are many days out of the year and many parks that he could have chosen from in order to place anti-religious signs in (it doesn't matter how offensive they were he didn't have to call Mary a whore in order to be an asshole). What he did was pick the time of the year when he knew Christians would be celebrating their traditions and the place where they went with their families to celebrate it. That's what makes him an asshole.

    It's kind of pathetic actually.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

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