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Thread: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

  1. #41
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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Killing "terrorists" in Yemen is a dumb thing to do. First, we don't know they're terrorists. Second, we kill many more innocent people than those who might be terrorists. We're just helping al Quaida to recruit. You kill one or two (maybe) and then they recruit hundreds. There will be another 9/11 and we'll be asking, "Why do they hate us?" They hate us because we kill their fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers -- and their children. You would hate another country too if they flew drones here and killed your family members.

    This is why we need a real left in American politics. The Greens would stop this nonsense. The Democrats are on the right and therefore won't. The Republicans are on the extremist far right and certainly won't stop and will probably start a war with Iran.
    That is totally unsubstantiated and weighs strongly against the facts that have been collected. The claim that we kill more innocents than terrorists is probably the least supported of all, and in fact drones probably have some of the greatest militant to civilian casualty ratios of any comparable weapon or tactic in our arsenal, they have been rather remarkable tools. The Long War Journal and the New America Foundation two of the more prominent think tanks and news outlets that cover drone strikes have created detailed and meticulous data on US drone strikes, with a specific focus on Pakistan. In particular the Long War Journal is critically acclaimed for its contacts among Pakistani and Waziri media. They both have estimates for militant lows and highs and civilian lows and highs, they break down as 1,600-2,800 and 150-190 respectively. This makes sense if you think about it because drones have the capacity to loiter on a target for an enormous period of time which over the past decade has vastly increased our capacity for observing and discerning militant and civilian targets and allowed us to deliver much smaller warheads to targets with an increased degree of confidence.

    The notion that we are killing hundreds of civilians in drone strikes is a myth pushed along by elements of the Pakistani media, and a self-flagellating narrative. It is totally unsupported by the facts. This was particularly supported by the Associated Press which did wide ranging research and interviews inside FATA which massively discredited Pakistani media and civil society groups: AP IMPACT: New light on drone war's death toll - Boston.com

    The Long War Journal - Charts on US Strikes in Pakistan
    The Year of the Drone | NewAmerica.net

    Moreover lets move to the next argument which involves their efficacy and their impact on civilians. The first and most salient point is that since so few civilians are killed it actually has had an incredibly reduced impact on the civilian population at large compared to lets say the Pakistani Army offensives which aimed to accomplish the same thing. In fact drone strikes are more opposed outside FATA than inside them eight times more supportive, and only a minority 48% think they are killing civilians frequently which is in stark contrast to the rest of the country ("Four Myths about Drone Strikes" by By Shehzad H. Qazi & Shoaib Jillani). Many journalists have substantiated this point in field research, with several Afghani/Pakistani native journalists working for FP going to Waziristan and reporting on the efficacy of drone strikes and the fact that many in the tribal belt actually support them as a superior means than the Pakistani military or air strikes.

    Finally the most repeated claim, and the one with almost no evidence to support it is that we are merely creating new terrorists or militants. This trope has become pervasive over the last decade, but it rarely has any evidence in fact and shows no understanding for the demographics of militant groups, their recruitment pools, or the situation they are involved in. A detailed study by the RAND corporation between 2004-2010 found that there was a negative correlation between drone strikes and militant recruitment. In other words there is no evidence at all that drone strikes or the lack thereof had an impact on recruitment and that other factors as is usual contributed to this (http://patrickjohnston.info/materials/drones.pdf).

    To sum up my position I'll quote Zmarak Yousefzai, a US based Afghan and Pakistani national security expert writes: "Nevertheless, by yet another comparison of hypocrisy, those who are loudest about casualties from U.S. drone strikes have rarely protested the far higher numbers of civilian casualties as a result of Pakistan Army operations or Taliban violence in the Swat Valley and FATA. Silenced in this double standard are the varying motives of different parties as well as the voice of the Pashtun people in these tribal areas. At least one voice -- that of this native Pashtun -- is speaking out to say that there are serious downsides to these drone strikes, but they may be a necessary evil and the lone option to combat those who are responsible for the severe suffering of our people - like Malala Yousafzai."

    Voice of a native son: Drones may be a necessary evil - by Zmarak Yousefzai | The AfPak Channel

  2. #42
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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Uhh actually you knew anything on how i post you would find that i do criticize many dems and the Obama administration for this. Hell just yesterday i started a thread about Obama and drones and criticizing him.. And you will find many progressives on here and many leftists here and in this country that condemn these kind of attacks.


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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    I'm saying we have an absolute right to bomb and kill terrorists wherever we can find them.
    We do?
    What about Russia? Canada? Mexico? How about North Korea? China? Iran?

    Especially if the country in which they are living is either unable or unwilling to do so. Personally, I'd rather kill them in Yemen than here.
    All of this is against international law.
    You also know that these drones strikes also increase terrorist recruitment?


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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    Funny how you say Obama supporters are quick to pull out the race card when Obama's actions are questioned, yet here you are, using the race card. Well done.



    And how many innocent people in Middle East have to die before we stop bombing them? The fact that we are so willing as a nation to kill innocent people under the guise of protecting our own (gee, kinda sounds like the reason Osama's reasons for attacking us) is a travesty and it is no surprise that we have no credibility.
    Oh, I think we have a ton of credibility with every terrorist in the Middle East. I am very pleased than all of them go to bed at night with the understanding that they may well be visited by a drone. No matter how many of you post threads essentially saying 'Lo the poor terrorist', it's not working with me. To hell with them and the people that shelter them.
    "Groups with guitars are on the way out, Mr. Epstein"

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  5. #45
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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Oh, I think we have a ton of credibility with every terrorist in the Middle East. I am very pleased than all of them go to bed at night with the understanding that they may well be visited by a drone. No matter how many of you post threads essentially saying 'Lo the poor terrorist', it's not working with me. To hell with them and the people that shelter them.
    You seem to have misplaced where my sympathies are. Point to where I feel bad for the terrorist. It's okay, I'll wait. Meanwhile, how about a little compassion for those innocent lives lost.
    Hail to the King baby!

  6. #46
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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Here's a simple question for you. Do you support the current policy of attacking terrorists with drones, or do you not? From reading your post, and the post of others, I would assume none of you support those actions and instead you would prefer we just leave them alone.
    "Groups with guitars are on the way out, Mr. Epstein"

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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    I have become quite pragmatic about this.
    so did this awakening magically happen after Bush left office?

  8. #48
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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Well done, Brother O!
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Uhh actually you knew anything on how i post you would find that i do criticize many dems and the Obama administration for this. Hell just yesterday i started a thread about Obama and drones and criticizing him.. And you will find many progressives on here and many leftists here and in this country that condemn these kind of attacks.
    I wasn't aware I was speaking to the sentient will of liberal america. But I'm going to assume that for some unknown reason you confused my comments on the shift within the liberal demographic with comments specifically directed at you

  10. #50
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    Re: Obama Bombs Yemen Hours After Winning Reelection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    so did this awakening magically happen after Bush left office?
    Pragmatism? Before, of course. Doesn't mean I approved of the war in Iraq, or that I now approve of unlimited detention. I don't automatically like or dislike everything a president does based on his party.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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