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How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

hawke812 said:
If you can read my previous posts, I have already stated we need congressional oversight. That is actually what this whole thread is about, abusing executive powers.

And I see what you are doing. We have a bad situation, and you offer a worse situation. Very lame attempt to change the subject:lol:

I see a few flaws with your suggestion.

First, the US was officially at war with Germany and Japan. We are not at war with Pakistan or Yemen.

Second, these drone attacks are being conducted by the CIA 'secretly' with no congressional oversight.
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We are at war with those who are at war with us. And war is hell.
 
VanceMack said:
Im afraid you sare the one drinking the koolaid. You take one or two lines and a misleading headline and use that as your 'evidence'. There is no 'targeting' of first responders. The drones launch two missiles at the target.

Did you watch the video? Do you consider that an unbiased source?

Best way for drone attacks to stop...stop housing and hiding terrorists.
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You are so delusional. Do you even know how a missile system works? A missile needs a target. A live target, not some inanimate object like a tree or rock.

CIA Operative: "Target that Osama Bin Laden looking tree over there".

And you seriously believe first responders are on scene mid missile flight so it's their fault for getting in the way?:lamo

Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law's study/report/findings the media is reporting on is an unbiased source. They are not party to the attacks, nor were they victims of the attacks. They were not hired by the government, nor the media. Pretty sure that is the literal definition of unbiased:lol:
 
hawke812 said:
You are so delusional. Do you even know how a missile system works? A missile needs a target. A live target, not some inanimate object like a tree or rock.

CIA Operative: "Target that Osama Bin Laden looking tree over there".

And you seriously believe first responders are on scene mid missile flight so it's their fault for getting in the way?:lamo

Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law's study/report/findings the media is reporting on is an unbiased source. They are not party to the attacks, nor were they victims of the attacks. They were not hired by the government, nor the media. Pretty sure that is the literal definition of unbiased:lol:
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So far, every 'example' you cited has been a lie, misstatement, or partial truth. Yet you think you are scoring points. In every example terrorists were present. You make silly statements like "we arent at war with Yemen" and ignore the fact that it is the Yemen government and defense ministry that is working with and coordinating the attacks on terror targets. In the last, terrorists were present and the target missed. Tragic...but that happens. Communities that harbor terrorists sometimes suffer the dire consequences.

As to your 'unbiased'report, did they cite even one legit target eliminated or did they merely focus on a few tragic tales? oh...believe me...I have empathy for the unintended victims. I also understand the real world and the need to combat terrorism. Thats why people that are ruled by feeeelings have no business in government. They should feel safe to sit back on the sideline and bitch whine and moan about how the game is played by people with the stomach to actually play the game. OR...as an alternative...they should feel free to take their happy ass over there and 'negotiate' with the terrorists.
 
VanceMack said:
So far, every 'example' you cited has been a lie, misstatement, or partial truth. Yet you think you are scoring points. In every example terrorists were present. You make silly statements like "we arent at war with Yemen" and ignore the fact that it is the Yemen government and defense ministry that is working with and coordinating the attacks on terror targets. In the last, terrorists were present and the target missed. Tragic...but that happens. Communities that harbor terrorists sometimes suffer the dire consequences.

As to your 'unbiased'report, did they cite even one legit target eliminated or did they merely focus on a few tragic tales? oh...believe me...I have empathy for the unintended victims. I also understand the real world and the need to combat terrorism. Thats why people that are ruled by feeeelings have no business in government. They should feel safe to sit back on the sideline and bitch whine and moan about how the game is played by people with the stomach to actually play the game. OR...as an alternative...they should feel free to take their happy ass over there and 'negotiate' with the terrorists.
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Based on what? Please, go ahead and show proof every example is a lie, misstatement and/or partial truth. So far, you have shown ZERO evidence to the contrary. I am surprised you have not done so earlier.

And wait, wanting to be sure executive powers are not being abused = being ruled by feelings now? That is a bit of a stretch:lol:
 
Harshaw said:
Yeah. It's perfectly fine to kill at will and **** all who happen to be standing nearby, but pouring water over them? Hmmmm.
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By 'killing at will' are you referring to George Bush's aerial war against Iraq, where all kinds of folks who 'happen to be standing nearby' were killed? Or the bombings of World War II? Or does it only offend your tender sensibilities when it's a Democratic President and he's actually being successful?
 
VanceMack said:
So far, every 'example' you cited has been a lie, misstatement, or partial truth. Yet you think you are scoring points. In every example terrorists were present. You make silly statements like "we arent at war with Yemen" and ignore the fact that it is the Yemen government and defense ministry that is working with and coordinating the attacks on terror targets. In the last, terrorists were present and the target missed. Tragic...but that happens. Communities that harbor terrorists sometimes suffer the dire consequences.

As to your 'unbiased'report, did they cite even one legit target eliminated or did they merely focus on a few tragic tales? oh...believe me...I have empathy for the unintended victims. I also understand the real world and the need to combat terrorism. Thats why people that are ruled by feeeelings have no business in government. They should feel safe to sit back on the sideline and bitch whine and moan about how the game is played by people with the stomach to actually play the game. OR...as an alternative...they should feel free to take their happy ass over there and 'negotiate' with the terrorists.
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Could you briefly describe what a terrorist looks like on a video monitor?

How does a terrorist look differently than a shepherd, for example?
 
Wiggen said:
By 'killing at will' are you referring to George Bush's aerial war against Iraq, where all kinds of folks who 'happen to be standing nearby' were killed? Or the bombings of World War II? Or does it only offend your tender sensibilities when it's a Democratic President and he's actually being successful?
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Successful at what?
 
VanceMack said:
Both of your articles cited the same strike. So...2 points...1-Take it up with the Yemen government that authorized the airstrike. 2-"A senior Defense Ministry official said the strike initially targeted two members of al-Thahab clan who lead the terror network's operations in the province. He said the militants were in a vehicle near the one that was hit, and fled unharmed."
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The government of Yemen?

That sounds eerily like the Nuremberg Defense--I tortured and killed because my superiof officer told me to.
 
VanceMack said:
Within our borders we ARE taking out terrorists. In the ME...same thing. Let the Euros take it to the international courts all they want.
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What terrorists within our borders are we taking out?

Pizza deliverymen who are deluded and seduced into thinking they can attack Fort Dix? :lamo

Or enthusiastic young men who think they can attack the Federal Reserve Bank?

It sounds like you might have watched one too many episodes of 24. ;)
 
Henry David said:
Could you briefly describe what a terrorist looks like on a video monitor?

How does a terrorist look differently than a shepherd, for example?
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Thats what you have ground intel for. And you will notice that in all the examples cited there WERE terrorist targets or terrorist sites listed.

I get it. You honestly believe the Obama policy is to indiscriminately fly drones around and random pickle off missile and kill civilians for fun. You think they arent using or heading or engaging US and foreign national intel.

Thats just...goofy.
 
Henry David said:
What terrorists within our borders are we taking out?

Pizza deliverymen who are deluded and seduced into thinking they can attack Fort Dix? :lamo

Or enthusiastic young men who think they can attack the Federal Reserve Bank?

It sounds like you might have watched one too many episodes of 24. ;)
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No no...you listed a few of them. But you missed a few. Relevant point being they are identifying terror threats in the US and acting on them, just as they are identifying them in foreign countries. Job well done...you can sleep just a little bit easier. OR...you can engage the terrorists in your ever so much more successful ways...by all means.

Of course, in the US, the police and intel agencies can operate a little more effectively than they can in the ME.
 
VanceMack said:
Thats what you have ground intel for. And you will notice that in all the examples cited there WERE terrorist targets or terrorist sites listed.

I get it. You honestly believe the Obama policy is to indiscriminately fly drones around and random pickle off missile and kill civilians for fun. You think they arent using or heading or engaging US and foreign national intel.

Thats just...goofy.
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Oh, I'm sure they have their methods. Obama and an advisor sit in the Oval Office, and select from a list of people they don't know who shall be killed. Sure, sure, Colonel Klink or some other "intelligence" fellow makes the case against the various targeted individuals. Rather the way they targeted various Vietnamese peasants, "VC sympathizers", during Operation Tailwind.

Yeah, I know how the military works. The Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution is a good example. Or the Pentagon Papers. Purposeful witholding and distortion of facts.

And the beat goes on.

What's sad is that so many otherwise good americans have bought into the sophistry. :(
 
VanceMack said:
No no...you listed a few of them. But you missed a few. Relevant point being they are identifying terror threats in the US and acting on them, just as they are identifying them in foreign countries. Job well done...you can sleep just a little bit easier. OR...you can engage the terrorists in your ever so much more successful ways...by all means.

Of course, in the US, the police and intel agencies can operate a little more effectively than they can in the ME.
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You have bought into the sophistry.
 
Henry David said:
Oh, I'm sure they have their methods. Obama and an advisor sit in the Oval Office, and select from a list of people they don't know who shall be killed. Sure, sure, Colonel Klink or some other "intelligence" fellow makes the case against the various targeted individuals. Rather the way they targeted various Vietnamese peasants, "VC sympathizers", during Operation Tailwind.

Yeah, I know how the military works. The Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution is a good example. Or the Pentagon Papers. Purposeful witholding and distortion of facts.

And the beat goes on.

What's sad is that so many otherwise good americans have bought into the sophistry. :(
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Right. Ive 'bought into it'. That, or I have actually been there and picked up body parts for a decade or so as a result of the ongoing terror attacks and realize they present a real threat and need to be fought...preferably there and not here.

2 things...

1-its very sad that you honest to god believe they freely and randomly kill civilians for fun and profit and
2-Its kinda repulsive that I have had to actually champion Obamas war on terror for 264 posts now.
 
VanceMack said:
Right. Ive 'bought into it'. That, or I have actually been there and picked up body parts for a decade or so as a result of the ongoing terror attacks and realize they present a real threat and need to be fought...preferably there and not here.

2 things...

1-its very sad that you honest to god believe they freely and randomly kill civilians for fun and profit and
2-Its kinda repulsive that I have had to actually champion Obamas war on terror for 264 posts now.
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We picked up body parts in UH-1H helicopters in Vietnam too. But the VC were no threat to America, just as Pakistani goat herders are not threats to this country.

It was a Bright & Shining lie that was told to take us to southeast asia back in the day, and it is Bright & Shining Lie 3 & 4 that took us to southwest asia. What's your point sir? That Pakistani goat herders are a threat to this country?

That is the sophistry you have bought into. You might find some high school kid who will believe all that nonsense, but I've been there done that. The GWOT is a fraud of epic proportions.
 
Henry David said:
We picked up body parts in UH-1H helicopters in Vietnam too. But the VC were no threat to America, just as Pakistani goat herders are not threats to this country.

It was a Bright & Shining lie that was told to take us to southeast asia back in the day, and it is Bright & Shining Lie 3 & 4 that took us to southwest asia. What's your point sir? That Pakistani goat herders are a threat to this country?

That is the sophistry you have bought into. You might find some high school kid who will believe all that nonsense, but I've been there done that. The GWOT is a fraud of epic proportions.
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Sure it is. Its all a fraud....
List of terrorist incidents, January

There is a reason why they arent happening in the US.
 
Henry David said:
The US government violates the Constitution in so many ways it is almost impossible to list them all.
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Well, then it's a good thing I didn't ask you to list all of them. I asked you about a very specific example.

Henry David said:
You offer some rather superficial hypotheticals, and I'll not waste my time with them.
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The applicability of my example to the topic at hand is actually quite obvious and I take your pretending otherwise and claims that it's "waste of time" as an equally obvious concession that you have no counterargument.

Henry David said:
By invading both Afghanistan and Iraq under false pretenses, the government has violated both the Constitution and international law by committing military aggression.
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And Santa Claus comes at Christmas time. But this thread isn't about Santa Claus, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
 
Henry David said:
Could you briefly describe what a terrorist looks like on a video monitor?

How does a terrorist look differently than a shepherd, for example?
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Shepherds don't carry AK-47s and RPGs, for one.
 
Henry David said:
We picked up body parts in UH-1H helicopters in Vietnam too. But the VC were no threat to America, just as Pakistani goat herders are not threats to this country.
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We're not fighting Pakistani goat herders. We are fighting the Taliban, who provided support and a base of operations for OBL and Al Qaeda to launch their attacks including 9/11.

But you already know this - you're just being disingenous because the truth doesn't jive with your beliefs.
 
the_recruit said:
We're not fighting Pakistani goat herders. We are fighting the Taliban, who provided support and a base of operations for OBL and Al Qaeda to launch their attacks including 9/11.

But you already know this - you're just being disingenous because the truth doesn't jive with your beliefs.
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No, I'm not being disingenuous. I'm being skeptical of government claims that are contradicted by facts. I'm looking beyond the illusions it creates.

And I know that Pakistani, Yemeni, Iraq, Afghani and any other variety of goat herders are not threats to these United States.

I know what wars brought under deception are, because I was involved in one decades ago.

I am not disingenuous, and I am not gullible either.
 
the_recruit said:
Well, then it's a good thing I didn't ask you to list all of them. I asked you about a very specific example.



The applicability of my example to the topic at hand is actually quite obvious and I take your pretending otherwise and claims that it's "waste of time" as an equally obvious concession that you have no counterargument.



And Santa Claus comes at Christmas time. But this thread isn't about Santa Claus, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
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Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

To answer your question properly requires that you understand one of the most important underlying principles of our constitution--that ours is a government of enumerated and limited powers. That is, our government cannot do anything it wants to, and it cannot pass any law it wants to.

As mentioned in Article I Section 8, the last sentence empowers the government to Make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing powers....

If one examines those foregoing powers, one discovers that there is no power for the President to avoid having to comply with due process. There is no power for the President to kill people. There is no power for the President to do what Obama is doing.

So, on topic, what Obama is doing violates the letter and spirit of the US Consitution. By his actions, he is a domestic enemy of the document.

NDAA and the Unpatriot Act are in the same class--violation of the document.
 
Wiggen said:
At killing the enemies of the United States. Try to pay attention.
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Obama has failed at that, too. He tried to pass off the narrative that al Qaeda was on the run, but it hasn't worked out very well. Particularly in Libya. He doesn't seem to understand that you can't simply wish away the fanatics, and he seems determined to repeat the mistakes of Neville Chamberlain.
 
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