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Thread: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    We picked up body parts in UH-1H helicopters in Vietnam too. But the VC were no threat to America, just as Pakistani goat herders are not threats to this country.
    We're not fighting Pakistani goat herders. We are fighting the Taliban, who provided support and a base of operations for OBL and Al Qaeda to launch their attacks including 9/11.

    But you already know this - you're just being disingenous because the truth doesn't jive with your beliefs.

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Shepherds don't carry AK-47s and RPGs, for one.
    Oh, kinda like the weapons being carried in the Collateral Murder gunship video?

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    We're not fighting Pakistani goat herders. We are fighting the Taliban, who provided support and a base of operations for OBL and Al Qaeda to launch their attacks including 9/11.

    But you already know this - you're just being disingenous because the truth doesn't jive with your beliefs.
    No, I'm not being disingenuous. I'm being skeptical of government claims that are contradicted by facts. I'm looking beyond the illusions it creates.

    And I know that Pakistani, Yemeni, Iraq, Afghani and any other variety of goat herders are not threats to these United States.

    I know what wars brought under deception are, because I was involved in one decades ago.

    I am not disingenuous, and I am not gullible either.

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Well, then it's a good thing I didn't ask you to list all of them. I asked you about a very specific example.



    The applicability of my example to the topic at hand is actually quite obvious and I take your pretending otherwise and claims that it's "waste of time" as an equally obvious concession that you have no counterargument.



    And Santa Claus comes at Christmas time. But this thread isn't about Santa Claus, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
    Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

    To answer your question properly requires that you understand one of the most important underlying principles of our constitution--that ours is a government of enumerated and limited powers. That is, our government cannot do anything it wants to, and it cannot pass any law it wants to.

    As mentioned in Article I Section 8, the last sentence empowers the government to Make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing powers....

    If one examines those foregoing powers, one discovers that there is no power for the President to avoid having to comply with due process. There is no power for the President to kill people. There is no power for the President to do what Obama is doing.

    So, on topic, what Obama is doing violates the letter and spirit of the US Consitution. By his actions, he is a domestic enemy of the document.

    NDAA and the Unpatriot Act are in the same class--violation of the document.

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    At killing the enemies of the United States. Try to pay attention.
    Obama has failed at that, too. He tried to pass off the narrative that al Qaeda was on the run, but it hasn't worked out very well. Particularly in Libya. He doesn't seem to understand that you can't simply wish away the fanatics, and he seems determined to repeat the mistakes of Neville Chamberlain.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

    To answer your question properly requires that you understand one of the most important underlying principles of our constitution--that ours is a government of enumerated and limited powers. That is, our government cannot do anything it wants to, and it cannot pass any law it wants to.

    As mentioned in Article I Section 8, the last sentence empowers the government to Make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing powers....

    If one examines those foregoing powers, one discovers that there is no power for the President to avoid having to comply with due process. There is no power for the President to kill people. There is no power for the President to do what Obama is doing.

    So, on topic, what Obama is doing violates the letter and spirit of the US Consitution. By his actions, he is a domestic enemy of the document.

    NDAA and the Unpatriot Act are in the same class--violation of the document.
    In short, I don't care. I'm not a strict constitutionalist. I don't place value in the constitution in and of itself. I value the constitution because I think it is a very useful and well-written document for establishing reasonable powers and limits on the government. But the constitution is not a flawless, holy document. Times change. There are issues addressed in the constitution that are completely obsolete and meaningless today. And we face other issues today that are not addressed in the constitution, issues that the founding fathers could not have possibly anticipated. Regardless of whether you agree with it, the powers granted to Congress in section 8 have been interpreted quite broadly - in part, to give our government fluidity and the ability to adapt with the times. So, I'm not interested in debating whether the AUMF is constitutional or not because it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is whether or not it's a good thing.

    Besides, whether or not the AUMF is constitutional or not is irrelevant until a federal court rules on its consitutionality. Our government is set up in such a way that all legislation is assumed constitutional until a court says otherwise. So, despite what you say, the AUMF and the Patriot Act are currently legal and are going to be implemented and observed as if they were legal until a ruling comes down overturning them.

    Purely from a strategic perspective I am highly supportive of the drone strikes. Pivoting away from heavy-handed, full-scale invasions and relying more on special forces operations and focused surgical strikes on terrorist leadership is absolutely necessary and has been quite effective so far. The Al-Qaeda leadership in AfPak has been decimated, and is the major reason Al Qaeda has been forced to retreat west into Yemen and the Maghreb. As with any military action, blowback is a legitimate concern. The drone strikes are extremely unpopular amongst Pakistanis, for example. But in Yemen we are not witnessing the same popular backlash, partly because the strikes have become more effective with fewer civilian casualties as our grasp of the technology improves.

    Despite what everybody's been saying in this thread, the Obama adminstration has in fact made an effort to lend transparency to his drone strike strategy. Obama has declassified the drone program in Yemen (though not in Pakistan) and has made public the details of the review process that is followed to determine if an Al Qaeda suspect is dangerous enough to warrant a strike, which is appears quite rigorous.

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    In short, I don't care. I'm not a strict constitutionalist. I don't place value in the constitution in and of itself. I value the constitution because I think it is a very useful and well-written document for establishing reasonable powers and limits on the government. But the constitution is not a flawless, holy document. Times change. There are issues addressed in the constitution that are completely obsolete and meaningless today. And we face other issues today that are not addressed in the constitution, issues that the founding fathers could not have possibly anticipated. Regardless of whether you agree with it, the powers granted to Congress in section 8 have been interpreted quite broadly - in part, to give our government fluidity and the ability to adapt with the times. So, I'm not interested in debating whether the AUMF is constitutional or not because it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is whether or not it's a good thing.

    Besides, whether or not the AUMF is constitutional or not is irrelevant until a federal court rules on its consitutionality. Our government is set up in such a way that all legislation is assumed constitutional until a court says otherwise. So, despite what you say, the AUMF and the Patriot Act are currently legal and are going to be implemented and observed as if they were legal until a ruling comes down overturning them.

    Purely from a strategic perspective I am highly supportive of the drone strikes. Pivoting away from heavy-handed, full-scale invasions and relying more on special forces operations and focused surgical strikes on terrorist leadership is absolutely necessary and has been quite effective so far. The Al-Qaeda leadership in AfPak has been decimated, and is the major reason Al Qaeda has been forced to retreat west into Yemen and the Maghreb. As with any military action, blowback is a legitimate concern. The drone strikes are extremely unpopular amongst Pakistanis, for example. But in Yemen we are not witnessing the same popular backlash, partly because the strikes have become more effective with fewer civilian casualties as our grasp of the technology improves.

    Despite what everybody's been saying in this thread, the Obama adminstration has in fact made an effort to lend transparency to his drone strike strategy. Obama has declassified the drone program in Yemen (though not in Pakistan) and has made public the details of the review process that is followed to determine if an Al Qaeda suspect is dangerous enough to warrant a strike, which is appears quite rigorous.
    Thanks for being honest enough to admit you don't care about the document. That explains your perverse values and moral code. You demonstrate so very well that we americans have the government we deserve.

  8. #278
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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Thanks for being honest enough to admit you don't care about the document. That explains your perverse values and moral code.
    That's it? That's the best you can do? A terrible misrepresentation of what I said? Typical.

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    Re: How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American Citizen

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    That's it? That's the best you can do? A terrible misrepresentation of what I said? Typical.
    Just trying to keep it civil.

    I took an oath to defend the document from enemies both foreign and domestic, so I'm sensitive about it. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest reason we are in the mess we are in is because we have not been governed in accordance with the document and its principles. We have forsaken government by law and the rule of law.

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