The bullies win again[W710; 739]

OldWorldOrder said:

You can say that about lots of things. Whoever this guy swerved to avoid was 'responsible'. Maybe the guy who opened his door was running late because his kid was sick, so in his rush to get to work on time, he opened the door without looking. Maybe that dude's kid is directly tied to the guy on the bike's death.

I was about to take my dog out, but I saw your post and wanted to respond. Maybe when I take him out after this, they'll be a cracked out, desperate guy walking by who stabs me for my wallet. Are you going to be directly tied to my death, because if not for your post I would've missed him?

Or are people just responsible for their own actions, even as we know that everyone is connected and that no man is an island?

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This is not just some butterfly effect. If it was Maxson, he did direct harm to her. It is not murder but a serious crime. He has apparently victimized many young girls.

BayToBay said:

This is not just some butterfly effect. If it was Maxson, he did direct harm to her. It is not murder but a serious crime. He has apparently victimized many young girls.

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And he should be punished for whatever crimes regarding stalking and harassment are on the books where he lives.

But she killed herself. That's on her.

Jerry said:

...sluts and attention-whores are not 'great people', they were never going to be anything anyway. By definition, no, their downfall is not a tragedy. This lady was not a victim of society, she was a bad person society rightfully rejected. She deserves our thanks for removing herself from the gene pool.

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I guess this explains why you are such a strong defender of abortions.:shrug:

madman said:

im not really sure if this is the proper place for this, but since it's the topic of bullying, i guess it's ok to place it here.

This is a very tragic story of a girl that commited suicide because of bullying. Yes, she made some big mistakes, but these mistakes do not make it ok to bully.

This is the video that she post prior to killing herself. very sad.

This needs to stop!



Amanda Todd: Bullied Canadian Teen Commits Suicide After Prolonged Battle Online And In School


in 3...2...1.... here comes the pro-bully posts

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No - you're looking to shallow at her issues. It's not *all because of bullying* - her very first act she mentions is a sign that she had serious emotional issue and she needed help for them - of course - her actions spiraled out of control quickly.

All of these 'bullied teens who commit suicide' evidently had serious emotional problems before the suicide - that probably began to surface in childhood or in their early teen years . . . and culminated in the 'end' - long ago she should have received therapy and intervention and support.

Therapy, intervention, and support - it's not possible to stress this enough. I'm sure there were a lot of other things *before* the webcam incident that were a sign that she needed help *back then* . . .and no one noticed.

Often - people never notice until it's way too late.

Until the 'early-early warning signs' are noticed and addressed we won't get anywhere in the right direction with 'help' - it's not all about bullying. A lot of teens commit suicide who are NEVER bullied. Teen suicide is a much bigger problem that that.

Jerry said:

Negative. She exposed herself to several men, not just one. She had sex with several men, not just one. She was not raped, she was a willing participant over and over again.


Yeah they're typically attention whores.


See? Attention whores.


Yes, it does. That's exactly what it does, and she did it several times.


That means he's responsible for a sex crime, not a suicide, get it right.


Because she didn't choose that more nurturing environment. She didn't follow to the path to live with a better relative or friend, she didn't try any of that. She decided to become a slut. She wanted to fit in with men by fitting them into her.


Yeah she was so abused she had all this free time to go be a slut with different guys. Wow so controlled. She did have a lot of support from her family, but she turned her back on it. Now she's a statistic and the only reason she won't be forgotten about in 72 hours is because she killed herself at the same time multiple records were broken for the first sky-dive from space. That was a ****in genius attention-whore move. Real people are in awe and celebrating something that matters and this little skank has to hog the camera 'look at me look at me I'm gona kill myself'.


It's the perfect portrait of great and small, the man who jumped out of the sky and the skank who drank bleach.

I applaud them both.

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Where did you get all this personal info regarding this minor child? Nowhere have I read or heard that she had multiple sex partners or that she posted topless pics on the web more than once? I did read that the topless pics were posted on a "Minors Only" image blog and that the original predator created a fraudulent membership to get her pic because he was an adult and could not otherwise access the site. Is this all just hyperbole that you've added to make your position look better? :shrug:

OldWorldOrder said:

And he should be punished for whatever crimes regarding stalking and harassment are on the books where he lives.

But she killed herself. That's on her.

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I don't feel any need or moral authority to condemn her. Whatever she did, she did to herself.

He (or whoever did this) hurt others and that elicits quite a different response. Legally, I can't see how he could be charged with her murder. Anyone who cares too can condemn him morally as a murderer or worse.

When this thread was started several days ago, I didn't see any reason to chime in. From my perspective, this was a tragic incident, but from a debate perspective, it was a no brainer. Is it tragic that this girl killed herself? Of course it is. Is bullying bad? Of course it is. Child pornography? Internet harassment? Bad and bad. End of story.
Much to my surprise, this thread has endured for 70+ pages. Out of curiosity I checked back in this afternoon to discover a seething pool of vitriol. Having browsed some of the comments, it's now clear to me that some people who have been commenting on this topic have some very weird, borderline disturbing takes on this situation. I'm going to address the two themes that strike me as the most wrong-headed:

1) Responsibility
The argument has been made - by several people - that this girl is solely responsible for her suicide. In a myopically literal sense, that is, of course, true. She did make the decision to take her own life, and that decision was hers, and hers alone. However, that line of thinking ignores another relevant factor:
Early in this thread, someone made the analogy that people's views on the responsibility issue would be different if this girl had killed her parents rather than herself. That might be true, but let's run with that hypo for a second, and take a look at how the law would approach the situation. Murder cases are very rarely clear cut, and when the perpetrator has killed someone while under conditions of heightened emotional distress, the law takes that into account. For example, if I were to kill my wife and her lover after finding the two of them in bed, I'd have a pretty strong "heat of passion" defense; which would reduce my likely conviction from murder II to voluntary manslaughter. What does that mean? It means that the law recognizes that sometimes the actions of others contribute to the bad actions of a criminal actor. In the example I just provided, the law is explicitly recognizing that I had been put into an especially bad state of mind by the actions of two other people (my hypothetical wife, and the dude she's banging). The point, of course, is that bad actions do not necessarily have any one source; and while my actions are my own responsibility, my actions are sometimes influenced by the bad actions of others. Consequently those people are, in fact, at least partially to blame for the ensuing tragedy.
The current situation is clearly analogous. Yes, this girl chose to take her own life, but that in no way absolves the numerous people in her life who treated her in an extremely awful fashion of their responsibility for their contributions to her mental state at the time she killed herself.
It's easy to step into a conversation like this and simply blame the girl, but that does her an injustice. Other people influenced her in terrible ways through their own actions. That is their responsibility. To the extent that they influenced her, they are partially culpable for the tragedy that ensued. Again, the law recognizes this kind of thing in a variety of ways. It's the reason that harassment is a crime. It's one of the reasons that stalking is a crime. It's the sole reason that intentional infliction of emotional distress is a tort.
In short, I'd advise the people in this thread who are fixated on demonizing this girl for taking her own life to take the time to think about what went into getting her into the mental state that would cause her to believe that killing herself was a good idea (or possibly her only option). The people who helped get her to that mental state are partially to blame for what happened.


2) She was a slut/whore/etc
This issue is less complicated, and far more awful. A couple of people have repeatedly made disparaging remarks about this girl on the grounds that she was promiscuous (in their eyes). Some have gone as far as to say that the world is better off without her because she was (in their eyes) promiscuous.
This sort of thinking smacks of puritanical misogyny of the worst sort. There is nothing wrong with a girl wanting to have sex. There is nothing wrong with a girl having sex. I like sex. Pretty much everyone does. Attaching a moral judgment to such a thing to the point where you feel it's justified to conclude that this girl deserved what happened to her is, frankly, disgusting. An interest in sex really has little bearing on a person's character; and to pretend otherwise, while attempting to write of a tragedy is - at best - a form of self delusion. I can't help wondering if the people calling this girl a slut, and condoning her death on that ground, would do the same if it had been a male child who killed himself.

I imagine a couple of the die-hards on this thread are going to jump down my throat for my comments. Understand that I have no interest in getting into a pissing match on this topic. It's a tragic thing, and deserves some level of deference and respect. I won't be responding to flame-bait, repetition, or other similarly non-productive comments. If your response contains words like "slut" or "whore" or anything analogous, I won't be responding. Given those ground rules, if you've actually got an argument to make in response to what I've just said, by all means go for it.

What about

3) Her parents were responsible for her care during her life and did not see and / or care about her issues that were obviously around before the bullying even started.

Providing help for someone who has issues is essential - but is only possible if mom/dad (etc) know there's even a problem, recognize and step in . . . it's complicated. But overall - education on these issues would be the remedy.

(and other things related to a better family dynamic- a more solid parent/child relationship so she felt ok to communicate . . . saying no to peer pressure . . . not putting yourself online to be 'looked at' and so on)

BayToBay said:

He is not going to be tried for murder. Settle down.

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No, but he should be tried for stalking and harassment of a minor.

Aunt Spiker said:

What about

3) Her parents were responsible for her care during her life and did not see and / or care about her issues that were obviously around before the bullying even started.

Providing help for someone who has issues is essential - but is only possible if mom/dad (etc) know there's even a problem, recognize and step in . . . it's complicated. But overall - education on these issues would be the remedy.

(and other things related to a better family dynamic- a more solid parent/child relationship so she felt ok to communicate . . . saying no to peer pressure . . . not putting yourself online to be 'looked at' and so on)

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I'm not sure that's really an issue, as such (or at least not an issue that's particularly relevant to either of the points that I've made). Yes, obviously, parental involvement is a good thing. Avoiding peer pressure is a good thing. Those are relevant concerns, but have very little bearing on the degree to which bullies and a cyberstalker had a direct impact on this girl's mental health.

The "not putting yourself online" thing is also a valid interest, and is something that every young person (especially girls) should be aware of. I actually forgot to bring this up, but it's an interesting topic. I've seen some back-and-forth on this thread along the lines of "she brought this on herself by flashing random dudes." Yeah, maybe. But young people have very little awareness of the consequences of their actions. You can tell a 13 year old girl over and over again that if she flashes someone, it's going to be on the internet forever, but she's going to be thinking to herself "yeah, that happens to people, of course I get that MOM, but in this particular situation, it'll be fine." Analogously, we all had to watch horrific images of gruesome accidents during drivers ed. That doesn't stop thousands of young men from racing each other in their dad's cars every Saturday night. Everyone involved in such a thing is thinking (to the extent they're thinking at all) "yeah, I know that driving like a crazy person could potentially kill me, but it's not going to happen tonight." Teenagers are stupid, and even when they believe they're being careful, they're probably overlooking things that would be obvious to an adult. That's exactly the position this girl was in.

OpportunityCost said:

No, but he should be tried for stalking and harassment of a minor.

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Also for owning and distributing child porn.

OpportunityCost said:

No, but he should be tried for stalking and harassment of a minor.

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I was simply pointing out that there was little reason to argue about whether it was murder, in a legal sense, in response to a very emotionally charged discussion. Cooler heads will prevail before anyone is tried.

I condemn him in a moral sense for something worse than murder. He, apparently, did this to several girls. It was a very cold, sadistic and callous form of torture.

I've been cyberbullied before. It is very hurtful. My being cyberbullied never made me attempt suicide, but her situation looks like it is far worse.

For all the people who are claiming "that slut deserved it, she is the only one responsible" then you obviously have zero understanding of psychology. Sure, a lot of people, even at that age, might not be driven to suicide by those actions. But something like that leaves a mark, being humiliated and demeaned by everyone around you. From her behavior it looks like she had emotional problems to begin with.

Who gives a **** if she had sex? She was fifteen! Many teenagers aren't mature enough to understand that sex at that age is irresponsible (not immoral, it's just sex.) They get new feelings and aren't sure how to handle them. In no way did her behavior justify that creep's stalking of her. She flashed. So what? Only a big time loser would use a mistake like that to ruin her life.

Obviously she does share some responsibility in the matter. Her flashing to an adult was a mistake, but not a grave one. Her sleeping with a kid was a mistake, but not a grave one. Killing yourself is never the answer. It is clear to me, though, that using her promiscuity against her in this thread is a thin veil for misogyny. In situations like this misogynists blame the woman. Every single ****ing time. "She was raped? Oh, well she shouldn't have been wearing slutty clothes, then! Guys have absolutely no self control and instantly are overtaken with lust when they see a woman walking with less clothing than expected. Hell, the jury should even acquit the guy, obviously her clothes wearing seduced him into violating her dignity!" "Oh, that teenage girl was harassed into committing suicide? Oh, she was a whore anyway. People who have sex a lot obviously contaminate our gene pool."

:roll:

iangb said:

First time posting in the thread as well - I got a few pages in then skipped to the end, so apologies if I repeat anything that's been said already. The below is my (partly-rambling) thoughts on the topic, some of which I'm forming as I write this, and aren't aimed at anyone in particular (though a few seem to richly deserve it).

Tricky question. The 'simple' answer is that everyone is responsible for their own actions, so the suicidee is responsible. However... it occurs to me that suicide is a major symptom of fairly traumatic depression, which is a mental illness, and those who suffer from mental illnesses have diminished responsibilty, depending on the severity of the illness (and to be so depressed as to commit suicide indicates pretty severe depression, by my reckoning!). As such, responsibility would at the very least be shared by others - those who caused the depression to occur in the first place, and those who allowed it to continue and worsen to such a degree that the outcome was suicide, even after (apparently) a previous failed attempt. Legally, I'd imagine that the blow would fall hardest on parents/social workers/school/those with legal responsibilities for the person. Ethically, I'd also point the finger at the hundreds of people who unknowingly (or worse, deliberately) contributed to the depression.

At a guess... it depends. They could be obvious (clear mood swings, unexpected tears/outbursts, a shift in personality (especially from introvert to extravert or vice versa), self-harming) but I'd suspect that they could also be hidden entirely to the casual observer. I teach in a secondary school (age 11-18) in a large city in the UK, and several of our pupils are treated for one disorder or another - and it's not always obvious who.

Again, a pooly-educated guess, but... hopeless - and feeling as if they have no alternatives. Not seeing the point in continuing; no light at the end of the tunnel.

Because they don't believe it exists, or will work.

NB: I'd also differentiate between those who threaten suicide and those who are genuinely suicidal. The two groups most certainly overlap, but there are also indiviuals whom only one apply to - and by treating both groups as the same, we either alienate or coddle those who only fit into one (and try to score cheap points on debate forums, it seems).

NB2: For those who have never come across it, I'd strongly recomend watching the original play of An Inspector Calls (there is a film adaption, but it's not as good - nor is the more jazzed up version of the play which has become famous. The wiki summary is fairly good, but nowhere near as pogniant!). It's shamelessly socialist at times, and no doubt some will use that to critique it's message, but it has some points to make on suicide as well. It's certainly influenced what I've written here.

How did I do?

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This is a very thoughtful answer. I will respond with my thoughts after I read others who have responded. And you did well.

Caine said:

Oh boy a quiz!!!!

1) The person committing the suicide is responsible for the suicide.
2) A suicidal person is usually someone who suffers from some form of depression. Sometimes this person has found themselves in a situation for which they feel they can not recover. Im having a hard time answering this question without using some of my answers for the next question. So I'll just move on... (lol)
3) A suicidal person often feels a great deal of anxiety about the future for which they have led themselves to believe that the only way to fix the problem is through a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Sometimes the person feels that their death will cause grief to others who they blame for their state of mind, and it is their way of getting back at the people who put them in their situation. Sometimes a suicidal person cannot fathom or accept the upcoming consequences of their actions and would rather be dead then endure the punishment. The level of anxiety that a suicidal person feels over many levels of social interaction makes them feel as if they would rather be dead than face people, which is often why they hide themselves away.
4) Often times suicidal people lose trust with everyone. They believe their problems are too great for anyone to help them with. They believe that nobody WANTS to help them, they believe they cannot be helped regardless, in some cases they don't want help (because they want those who they feel are responsible for their depression to suffer)..... I could think of some other stuff maybe...

How am I doing? Probably not too good.

I keep trying to think of points from the many "Suicide Prevention and Awareness" training courses I have had to take over my time in both the military and law enforcement.

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Actually, your answers were pretty good. Third one was the only one that was a little off the mark.

Excon said:

Let me be succinct.

#1 It is the person committing the act.
#2 They don't care.
#3 They don't care.
#4 They didn't care.

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Good. Let me be succinct. You are one of the ones that I stated are uneducated on this issue.

OK. Now that some of the riff-raff have been exterminated from this thread, let's see if I can shed some light on this by answering my own questions. You might be surprised by some of the answers.

And for full disclosure: I am a therapist who works primarily with teenagers and have been for 22+ years. I work with very difficult teens... difficult in the sense of depressed/suicidal. I have dealt with, probably, well over 100 suicide attempts... either from clients that I got AFTER their attempt, or clients who attempted while in treatment with me. In fact, on Monday of this week, I hospitalized a 17 year old girl for a pretty serious suicide attempt.

Also, I wrote my final paper in graduate school on Suicidality.

CaptainCourtesy said:

1) What person is responsible for the suicide?

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The person who committed suicide. I know, some of you may be surprised by this answer, but you must keep reading to understand the rationale. We are each responsible for our behaviors and how we chose to respond to our feelings... the FEELINGS are what is beyond our control. Example: if I could choose how I feel, I'd be happy all the time. Now, there is a sequence of events that occurs in situations like what happened to this girl: triggering event ---> interpretation/thoughts/feelings of that event ---> behavioral reaction to that event. The same event can happen to several different people, and each of those people will interpret the event differently... because of their life experiences, state of mind, or something else. This girl was bullied. Many people are. How someone takes that bullying is an individual response which leads to an individual act. This is why the act of suicide is the responsibility of the individual who commits suicide.

Does the bully have any fault in this issue? For bullying, for sure. For contributing, for sure... however, there many be many other issues that also contributed. The bully is not to blame for the suicide. Now... and this is EXTREMELY important... the individual who commits suicide is also not to blame... it is their responsibility, though. This individual is a victim... a victim of bullying, a victim of their perceptions, undoubtedly based on other things. One does not blame the victim in these cases, but place responsibility on the one who acts.

2) What are the characteristics of a suicidal person?

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This is where #1 starts to get a bit murky. One who attempts suicide has some significant mental health issues. Regardless of whether or not the act seemed to be a singular event, or something random, it's not. No one attempts suicide on a whim without some mental health issues being present. We have to remember that one of the basic instincts of life is survival. All animals have this, and for someone to behave in a way that contradicts this basic instinct, indicates that something more powerful than that is happening. The suicidal person cannot see a way out of their situation and has decided that ending their life is preferable to living in their situation. Now, this though, in and of itself, may be a sign of that mental illness, since the individual may be completely closed off to other possibilities.

There is no suicide without mental illness. Therefore, this mitigates the complete responsibility of the individual. They are unable to make a rational decision because of their state of mind. This is one reason why I usually suggest to clients to NOT make any big, all encompassing decisions when being completely ruled by their unstable emotional state.

Most suicidal people cannot see past their perceived hopelessness of their situation.

3) How does that suicidal person feel?

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Hopeless. Depressed. Overwhelmed. But the overriding feeling is usually intense emotional pain. Consider this. You have a toothache... a bad one. All you want is for that pain to end. This is how a suicidal person feels... even more so. They will do ANYTHING for the pain that they are in, to end. Even kill themselves. For them, death is preferable to feeling in pain.

They are also angry. I have theorized that suicide is often a desire to commit a homicide turned inwards. In many cases, the individual turns that anger towards someone else, on themselves. This is due to self-esteem, depression, and often a long period of feeling emotionally abused or beaten down.

4) For one who completes a suicide, why would that person have not asked for help?

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Usually they do, sometimes directly, usually not. Suicidal feelings are very strange and if you haven't experienced them in some direct sort of way, it's hard to imagine them. They conflict with the basic instinct of survival, yet the individual can make themselves believe that they are completely logical. Sometimes it doesn't even occur to them to ask for help: suicide seems like the logical response to their situation.

Sometimes they have asked for help, but do not receive the help they need. Lots of times people believe that these teens are just being dramatic. Rule #1 when dealing with suicidal teens: ALWAYS take their suicidal comments/gestured seriously. ALWAYS. Should I say it again? It is irrelevant as to whether they are being dramatic or not. They are communicating that they are NOT OK. So, it is certainly possible that they did seek help but were not heard.

It is certainly possible that they are in such a hopeless state that they do not believe anyone can help them... so why bother saying anything. Again... their mental health issues overrule instincts... and what they've probably heard over and over: talk to someone.

So, who's fault is it that the girl in the OP committed suicide? No one's. Who's responsibility? Hers. Who contributed to what happened to her? EVERYONE. Personally, I don't care about the blame and responsibility in this situation. It's pretty irrelevant. I'm more about how to prevent things like this from happening, and what to do about them after they happen. Assigning blame accomplishes ZERO. This is about mental illness, isolation, being aware of bullying, and taking our teens seriously. The blame and responsibility is pretty meaningless.

Oh, and for anyone who made any comments about her behaviors. Irrelevant. Nothing to do with the issue at all. I could care less whether she had sex with no one, or 1000 guys. Does not mean that anyone had the right to harass her because of those behaviors... not did it mean that her response to that harassment was OK. This is what I mean. Blame is irrelevant.

I hope this post provided you all with some information on this topic.

CaptainCourtesy said:

OK. Now that some of the riff-raff have been exterminated from this thread, let's see if I can shed some light on this by answering my own questions. You might be surprised by some of the answers.

And for full disclosure: I am a therapist who works primarily with teenagers and have been for 22+ years. I work with very difficult teens... difficult in the sense of depressed/suicidal. I have dealt with, probably, well over 100 suicide attempts... either from clients that I got AFTER their attempt, or clients who attempted while in treatment with me. In fact, on Monday of this week, I hospitalized a 17 year old girl for a pretty serious suicide attempt.

Also, I wrote my final paper in graduate school on Suicidality.



The person who committed suicide. I know, some of you may be surprised by this answer, but you must keep reading to understand the rationale. We are each responsible for our behaviors and how we chose to respond to our feelings... the FEELINGS are what is beyond our control. Example: if I could choose how I feel, I'd be happy all the time. Now, there is a sequence of events that occurs in situations like what happened to this girl: triggering event ---> interpretation/thoughts/feelings of that event ---> behavioral reaction to that event. The same event can happen to several different people, and each of those people will interpret the event differently... because of their life experiences, state of mind, or something else. This girl was bullied. Many people are. How someone takes that bullying is an individual response which leads to an individual act. This is why the act of suicide is the responsibility of the individual who commits suicide.

Does the bully have any fault in this issue? For bullying, for sure. For contributing, for sure... however, there many be many other issues that also contributed. The bully is not to blame for the suicide. Now... and this is EXTREMELY important... the individual who commits suicide is also not to blame... it is their responsibility, though. This individual is a victim... a victim of bullying, a victim of their perceptions, undoubtedly based on other things. One does not blame the victim in these cases, but place responsibility on the one who acts.



This is where #1 starts to get a bit murky. One who attempts suicide has some significant mental health issues. Regardless of whether or not the act seemed to be a singular event, or something random, it's not. No one attempts suicide on a whim without some mental health issues being present. We have to remember that one of the basic instincts of life is survival. All animals have this, and for someone to behave in a way that contradicts this basic instinct, indicates that something more powerful than that is happening. The suicidal person cannot see a way out of their situation and has decided that ending their life is preferable to living in their situation. Now, this though, in and of itself, may be a sign of that mental illness, since the individual may be completely closed off to other possibilities.

There is no suicide without mental illness. Therefore, this mitigates the complete responsibility of the individual. They are unable to make a rational decision because of their state of mind. This is one reason why I usually suggest to clients to NOT make any big, all encompassing decisions when being completely ruled by their unstable emotional state.

Most suicidal people cannot see past their perceived hopelessness of their situation.



Hopeless. Depressed. Overwhelmed. But the overriding feeling is usually intense emotional pain. Consider this. You have a toothache... a bad one. All you want is for that pain to end. This is how a suicidal person feels... even more so. They will do ANYTHING for the pain that they are in, to end. Even kill themselves. For them, death is preferable to feeling in pain.

They are also angry. I have theorized that suicide is often a desire to commit a homicide turned inwards. In many cases, the individual turns that anger towards someone else, on themselves. This is due to self-esteem, depression, and often a long period of feeling emotionally abused or beaten down.



Usually they do, sometimes directly, usually not. Suicidal feelings are very strange and if you haven't experienced them in some direct sort of way, it's hard to imagine them. They conflict with the basic instinct of survival, yet the individual can make themselves believe that they are completely logical. Sometimes it doesn't even occur to them to ask for help: suicide seems like the logical response to their situation.

Sometimes they have asked for help, but do not receive the help they need. Lots of times people believe that these teens are just being dramatic. Rule #1 when dealing with suicidal teens: ALWAYS take their suicidal comments/gestured seriously. ALWAYS. Should I say it again? It is irrelevant as to whether they are being dramatic or not. They are communicating that they are NOT OK. So, it is certainly possible that they did seek help but were not heard.

It is certainly possible that they are in such a hopeless state that they do not believe anyone can help them... so why bother saying anything. Again... their mental health issues overrule instincts... and what they've probably heard over and over: talk to someone.

So, who's fault is it that the girl in the OP committed suicide? No one's. Who's responsibility? Hers. Who contributed to what happened to her? EVERYONE. Personally, I don't care about the blame and responsibility in this situation. It's pretty irrelevant. I'm more about how to prevent things like this from happening, and what to do about them after they happen. Assigning blame accomplishes ZERO. This is about mental illness, isolation, being aware of bullying, and taking our teens seriously. The blame and responsibility is pretty meaningless.

Oh, and for anyone who made any comments about her behaviors. Irrelevant. Nothing to do with the issue at all. I could care less whether she had sex with no one, or 1000 guys. Does not mean that anyone had the right to harass her because of those behaviors... not did it mean that her response to that harassment was OK. This is what I mean. Blame is irrelevant.

I hope this post provided you all with some information on this topic.

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Excellent post, as were the posts of Aderleth and IanGB.

I do feel better informed as a result of reading this thread, but also depressed at the trolling that has taken place.

Andalublue said:

Excellent post, as were the posts of Aderleth and IanGB.

I do feel better informed as a result of reading this thread, but also depressed at the trolling that has taken place.

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Yes... Adlerleth, Ians... and Caine's posts were good and provided good information on this topic. The trolls have been sent packing from the thread... as they should be. The adults can now speak about this topic.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Yes... Adlerleth, Ians... and Caine's posts were good and provided good information on this topic. The trolls have been sent packing from the thread... as they should be. The adults can now speak about this topic.

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You're right, Caine's posts were thoughtful too.

For my 2 cents, I believe that ascribing blame in these circumstances has no place in the discussion of what to do about suicidal teens. The bullying and internet harassment may well have been contributory factors to the state of mind the girl got into, and they should be dealt with by the relevant authorities. That the girl reacted to the external and internal circumstances with inappropriate and fatal decision-making was all about her, her mental illness and her impaired decision-making skills.

I haven't read enough about this case to know whether any of the rampant promiscuity that the trolls accused her of has any basis in fact. All I've read are that she had some inappropriate contact with someone she met online. That in itself might be a symptom of her internal turmoil, or it might just be a mistake of youth which, in any case and in my experience, contained an awful lot of internal turmoil.

I've no doubt that the people who loved her, and the professionals who were dealing with her, feel a horrible burden of failure at the outcome and do feel a terrible burden of responsibility for what happened. They WILL blame themselves, whether or not they did everything in their power to prevent this horrible outcome. I hope that they have people around them that can provide the calm perspective that you, and the other posters mentioned, have brought to this thread.

Caine said:

And yet I have not posted anything about calling her a slut..... nor, that I recall, criticizing her actions in any way EXCEPT her decision to kill herself.

Yet people continue to label me with the others.

Its a pathetic example of US V THEM

And the ole....
IF YOUR NOT WITH US... YER AGAINST US!.

ALL I am saying, is that the responsibility for killing herself is on her hands. SHE made that decision. At 15, you damned sure ARE responsible for your own decisions.

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, never said you called him slut..but admit..your comments are not so different from jerry'S posts..

Andalublue said:

You're right, Caine's posts were thoughtful too.

For my 2 cents, I believe that ascribing blame in these circumstances has no place in the discussion of what to do about suicidal teens. The bullying and internet harassment may well have been contributory factors to the state of mind the girl got into, and they should be dealt with by the relevant authorities. That the girl reacted to the external and internal circumstances with inappropriate and fatal decision-making was all about her, her mental illness and her impaired decision-making skills.

I haven't read enough about this case to know whether any of the rampant promiscuity that the trolls accused her of has any basis in fact. All I've read are that she had some inappropriate contact with someone she met online. That in itself might be a symptom of her internal turmoil, or it might just be a mistake of youth which, in any case and in my experience, contained an awful lot of internal turmoil.

I've no doubt that the people who loved her, and the professionals who were dealing with her, feel a horrible burden of failure at the outcome and do feel a terrible burden of responsibility for what happened. They WILL blame themselves, whether or not they did everything in their power to prevent this horrible outcome. I hope that they have people around them that can provide the calm perspective that you, and the other posters mentioned, have brought to this thread.

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Right on target, Anda. Whatever she did, she did as a result of her turmoil. Here's a fun fact. Many rape/molestation survivors become extremely promiscuous after their rape/molestation. Why? Logic would seem to dictate that after such an act, one would avoid sexual contact... and many do. Both, what others "learned" from their experience is that their bodies were not theirs and were not worth protecting. This was all they were worth, so they keep doing it. OR, they have lots of sex in order to psychologically reestablish control over the act, a way to prove to themselves that a trauma like that could not happen again.

This is why anyone who presented this girls promiscuity as part of her responsibility in what happened has no knowledge of mental illness.

Caine said:

*sigh* good ****ing grief..


SHE CHOSE to die.

It was HER decision.

NOBODY else is responsible for that decision.

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she was suffering from anxiety......moreover she was child....

do you know something about anxiety??

Medusa said:

she was suffering from anxiety......moreover she was child....

do you know something about anxiety??

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Medusa, I see exactly what you're saying, but I think you are misunderstanding Caine's point. He is talking about it being her 'responsibility', not about her being 'to blame'. Those are two different things. Jerry and the others, whose names I've happily forgotten, were 'blaming' her for what happened. Caine's is not doing that and his comments cannot be compared to that objectionable line of argument.

Andalublue said:

Medusa, I see exactly what you're saying, but I think you are misunderstanding Caine's point. He is talking about it being her 'responsibility', not about her being 'to blame'. Those are two different things. Jerry and the others, whose names I've happily forgotten, were 'blaming' her for what happened. Caine's is not doing that and his comments cannot be compared to that objectionable line of argument.

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Medusa... Anda's right. Read my post explaining the difference between blame and responsibility. Caine was placing responsibility on her... which is accurate.... not blame, which would not be.