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The bullies win again[W710; 739]

I've tried to avoid this thread because I knew if I read it, what I'd find. And a brief scan proved me correct: a complete lack of education and knowledge regarding suicide by some members of this message board.

So, here's a little quiz for you all... and consider that I did my graduate school final paper on suicide (similar to a dissertation, but not one), so I am eminently qualified to determine whether you are accurate or not:

1) What person is responsible for the suicide?
2) What are the characteristics of a suicidal person?
3) How does that suicidal person feel?
4) For one who completes a suicide, why would that person have not asked for help?

Let's start there and see how you all do.

Oh boy a quiz!!!!

1) The person committing the suicide is responsible for the suicide.
2) A suicidal person is usually someone who suffers from some form of depression. Sometimes this person has found themselves in a situation for which they feel they can not recover. Im having a hard time answering this question without using some of my answers for the next question. So I'll just move on... (lol)
3) A suicidal person often feels a great deal of anxiety about the future for which they have led themselves to believe that the only way to fix the problem is through a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Sometimes the person feels that their death will cause grief to others who they blame for their state of mind, and it is their way of getting back at the people who put them in their situation. Sometimes a suicidal person cannot fathom or accept the upcoming consequences of their actions and would rather be dead then endure the punishment. The level of anxiety that a suicidal person feels over many levels of social interaction makes them feel as if they would rather be dead than face people, which is often why they hide themselves away.
4) Often times suicidal people lose trust with everyone. They believe their problems are too great for anyone to help them with. They believe that nobody WANTS to help them, they believe they cannot be helped regardless, in some cases they don't want help (because they want those who they feel are responsible for their depression to suffer)..... I could think of some other stuff maybe...

How am I doing? Probably not too good.

I keep trying to think of points from the many "Suicide Prevention and Awareness" training courses I have had to take over my time in both the military and law enforcement.
 
I simply asked you a question based on your claim. I never made any derogatory claims about you or your parenting.

The bottom line is that unless this 15 year-old girl can be COMPLETELY and TOTALLY resposible for ALL of her own actions....then SOMEONE......SOMEWHERE has to accept at least SOME tiniest degree of responsibility for what she became and what she did. To completely place all the blame for this tragedy on the back of a confused and hurting child is just plain WRONG.

Why is this so hard to admit? And you did not answer my question......if this had been your daughter who lacked socialization and consistently made poor choices.....would you feel ANY responsibility at all? I would......I admitted that. She was a KID for God's sake. Aren't we supposed to be protecting the weak? Hasn't humanity at least evolved this much? I give up......"sighs"...
You are confusing responsibilities here.

Her responsibility.
The families responsibility.
And criminal responsibility.

The harasser is only responsible for his actions of harassment.
And that is what this discussion has centered around.
And his action are far removed from her decision to off herself.
Why you do not recognize that, and instead try to conflate the issue with these other responsibilities that in no way relieve her of her responsibility, is beyond me.

She is responsible for her death, not someone else.




Come on now......I could never imagine you involved in such a scheme. :lol:
Way to ignore and deflect away from the meat of his message.
The stats you provided, as they are, are really not applicable to this discussion.
 
I will put a hypothetical to you;

what if a father (who is a cop) rapes his 8 year old child every day for 4 years. Finally, the child takes her own life because she cannot see any other way to stop him from raping her.

Now is he morally responsible at all for her suicide?

Yes or no?
Figures!
A hypothetical that has nothing to do with this topic.
 
Why are people who see no problem and accept no responsibility for our children nagging and harrassing those of us who do?
I appears that you have the roles reversed, especially when one examines the record.

Heck, see the following for an example.



But this OldWorldOrder and Excon? They both clearly seem to want us to continue to feed our kids to marauding adults for sport, and that enthusiasm for the "right" to drive a child to suicide is nothing short of repugnant.
Why do you continually misrepresent a person's position?
Do you get some kind of enjoyment out of it?
Does it make you feel better about the position you hold or something?
Or is this just the way you try and bully others?

It is your actions in doing so that is repugnant!
 
The child tried for FOUR YEARS to escape this predator and when she could not, she died. Saying this was a "good result" is so vile, I hardly know what to call it.

Even the customers of child sex workers would find it hard to bless snuffing kids, I think.
And there in lays the part of the problem.
You do not have your facts straight.



YMy point was more toward this idea that since the bully didn't actually murder the kid, the bully was not at allresponsible.

There was a case that has been referenced in this thread, where there was a nurse (I forget the name of this person) who went on suicide chat rooms and convinced people to commit suicide, provide ways to commit suicide, lied about joining suicide pacts, and watched as these people committed suicide.


I don't have all the facts, but unless something emerged to change my mind, I'd certainly convict on a homicide charge. Probably not Murder One or Two; but manslaughter/negligent homicide?

Absolutely.


That's why it should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

In reply to all of the above quotes.

... do you realize that his harassment was far removed in time from her decision to kill herself.
And that what was bothering her at the time was the following.


"A guy then yelled, 'Just punch her already,' so [the girlfriend] did," Todd wrote. "She threw me to the ground and punched me several times. Kids filmed it. I was all alone and left on the ground."

Todd said she "wanted to die so bad" when her dad found her in a ditch. She drank bleach when she went home and had to be rushed to the hospital to have her stomach pumped, she said.

"After I got home, all I saw was on Facebook--'She deserved it. Did you wash the mud out of your hair? I hope she's dead,'" she wrote.

Bullied Teen Amanda Todd Leaves Behind Chilling YouTube Video - ABC News


The guys actions were far removed from her decision.
And not once in "you all's" haste to blood, have any of you tried to say the assaulter and her posse' is responsible. Have you?
It is always the guy who's actions are far removed in time.

Sorry. But claiming anybody is responsible besides Amanda, is a ridiculous claim.
The only one responsible is her. No one else.
 
I'd just like to point out the thing about annon finding the guy out I think I made the point before I admire them for most of their hacking as most of it is for the greater good.
Really?
Anonymous doesn't even know if they have the right person and you think they did a greater good and admire them?
Wow!
 
Most, if not all suicides are a tragedy.

Recognize that.
Actually that is based on a personal perception.


Objectively? Unless an unstable person somehow benefits society more than they are a detriment to it, Society is better off with their absence.
 
I've tried to avoid this thread because I knew if I read it, what I'd find. And a brief scan proved me correct: a complete lack of education and knowledge regarding suicide by some members of this message board.

So, here's a little quiz for you all... and consider that I did my graduate school final paper on suicide (similar to a dissertation, but not one), so I am eminently qualified to determine whether you are accurate or not:

1) What person is responsible for the suicide?
2) What are the characteristics of a suicidal person?
3) How does that suicidal person feel?
4) For one who completes a suicide, why would that person have not asked for help?

Let's start there and see how you all do.

Let me be succinct.

#1 It is the person committing the act.
#2 They don't care.
#3 They don't care.
#4 They didn't care.
 
i wish i were there to help her...................
 
I don't think many of you know the pain of being completely outcast in such a way. I was bullied my entire life by kids, and then family, and even teachers. I didn't become stronger, just a social outcast who can't hold a job because I can't relate to people. I remember going numb at one point in order to feel something other than pain.

I didn't cry, laugh, yell, or have any emotions for a year or more because the depression was so bad. I made imaginary worlds where people cared about me and daydreamed constantly, playing with pencils and ppper in 7th grade and making up new worlds. I knew not to talk to kids or sit with anyone at lunch from elementary to 8th grade. If I hadn't made my imaginary world and immersed myself in both my studies and writting, I wouldn't have made it through. I can't look back on that time to draw strength.from it and wish my childhood had been different everyday. It caused me PTSD and chronic insomnia (as I write I haven't slept in 2 days). Yeah she chose to take her own life, but as a child, it was someone elses responsibility to protect her, when she couldn't protect herself.

This isn't a temporary problem. I'm living proof i' can affect your whole life into adulthood.
 
Kids will be mean. No law will stop that. Enacting laws that even try will not exorcize people's demons. It is that simple. We can regulate acts, we cannot regulate the content of speech. Ask black lawyers who have defended KKK members on their right to speech as to why they did it. It wasn't because they love the Klan. There are reasonable ways to punish the stalkers, etc. but we cannot make people act the way we would want them to (and personally I would not want them to).
 
Accept the fact that no one forced her to flash her tits on a webcam.

There it is... All this talk about a "responsiblity" is just a way of masking what you really mean. Girls shouldn't have sexual feelings unless they are married to a "good christian man" and if they do they're horrible people who deserve what they get. It wasn't the bullying! It was the attitude of people like this who made her feel like she deserved the bullying. I rarely engage in personal attacks but you and people who think like you are truly some miserable bastards. BTW she's dead so I have no clue how she can take more "resposiblity".
 
Sometimes humanity sickens me, based on how little some care about suicide victims. I doubt they can even comprehend what they're discussing, and it is likely true that they treat suicide flippantly, as though to them life has no meaning. It's funny how a nihilist like me actually feels sad for her plight and how some take her demise so lightly.
 
Most, if not all suicides are a tragedy.

Recognize that.
Tragedy | Define Tragedy at Dictionary.com

a dramatic composition, often in verse, dealing with a serious or somber theme, typically that of a great person destined through a flaw of character or conflict with some overpowering force, as fate or society, to downfall or destruction.
...sluts and attention-whores are not 'great people', they were never going to be anything anyway. By definition, no, their downfall is not a tragedy. This lady was not a victim of society, she was a bad person society rightfully rejected. She deserves our thanks for removing herself from the gene pool.
 
Jerry I like you. We've had our battles, but you seem a bit pissy tonight. I aint trying to piss you off. I am just pointing out your kinda heated with this. Normaly you you come about with lots quotes and facts and stuff. Tonight seems different for some reason. For your information I dont have a dog in this fight. Check out some of my previous posts on this thread and you'll see where I am comming from. :party Cheers.
I'm the same same 'oll grumpy bastard I always was. I've always taken this position with suicides. Threads about someone's death which do not have the 'RIP' tag are rare, so maybe you've just never seen me post in one of these threads before.
 
That "lady" was a 12/13 year old 7th grader who had a momentary lapse of judgement coerced by a pedophile. Has anyone explained the psyche of the average 12/13 year old prepubescent girl? They're all about social groups, fitting in, and don't have the capacity to be on their guard against stupid decisions and the longterm consequences thereof. It wasn't about sex but acceptance for one.

For two, assuming she died a virgin or even having only one sexual partner, flashing her boobs doesn't make her slut or an attention whore. Remember it took her a year to cave into this guy online. He was persistent and knew what he was doing.

For three, how would you know what this young lady was capable of given a more nurturing environment? Bullying is just another word for abuse and abused children generally achieve less and have more problrns in life than their "Meet the Jones'" , two parent, subhurbian peers.


This was an innocent life lost.
 
That "lady" was a 12/13 year old 7th grader who had a momentary lapse of judgement coerced by a pedophile.
Negative. She exposed herself to several men, not just one. She had sex with several men, not just one. She was not raped, she was a willing participant over and over again.

Has anyone explained the psyche of the average 12/13 year old prepubescent girl?
Yeah they're typically attention whores.

They're all about social groups, fitting in, and don't have the capacity to be on their guard against stupid decisions and the longterm consequences thereof. It wasn't about sex but acceptance for one.
See? Attention whores.

For two, assuming she died a virgin or even having only one sexual partner, flashing her boobs doesn't make her slut or an attention whore.
Yes, it does. That's exactly what it does, and she did it several times.

Remember it took her a year to cave into this guy online. He was persistent and knew what he was doing.
That means he's responsible for a sex crime, not a suicide, get it right.

For three, how would you know what this young lady was capable of given a more nurturing environment?
Because she didn't choose that more nurturing environment. She didn't follow to the path to live with a better relative or friend, she didn't try any of that. She decided to become a slut. She wanted to fit in with men by fitting them into her.

Bullying is just another word for abuse and abused children generally achieve less and have more problrns in life than their "Meet the Jones'" , two parent, subhurbian peers.
Yeah she was so abused she had all this free time to go be a slut with different guys. Wow so controlled. She did have a lot of support from her family, but she turned her back on it. Now she's a statistic and the only reason she won't be forgotten about in 72 hours is because she killed herself at the same time multiple records were broken for the first sky-dive from space. That was a ****in genius attention-whore move. Real people are in awe and celebrating something that matters and this little skank has to hog the camera 'look at me look at me I'm gona kill myself'.

This was an innocent life lost.
It's the perfect portrait of great and small, the man who jumped out of the sky and the skank who drank bleach.

I applaud them both.
 
There it is... All this talk about a "responsiblity" is just a way of masking what you really mean. Girls shouldn't have sexual feelings unless they are married to a "good christian man" and if they do they're horrible people who deserve what they get. It wasn't the bullying! It was the attitude of people like this who made her feel like she deserved the bullying. I rarely engage in personal attacks but you and people who think like you are truly some miserable bastards. BTW she's dead so I have no clue how she can take more "resposiblity".

*weep*

I believe in, the rule of the jungle....."only the strong survive” and “predators prey on the weak”...Period

In the jungle, predators go after the weak and sick. They chase/capture and eventually eat their sorry asses….that's natures way of keeping everybody healthy plus, the weeding/thinning out of the herd.

What happened to her was natures way of thinning out the herd.....it's that simple


Welcome to life, John.nosetip.... its hard, it's a bitch. Get over it.
 
Tragedy | Define Tragedy at Dictionary.com


...sluts and attention-whores are not 'great people', they were never going to be anything anyway. By definition, no, their downfall is not a tragedy. This lady was not a victim of society, she was a bad person society rightfully rejected. She deserves our thanks for removing herself from the gene pool.

OK, that's just ****ing disgusting. How could you say such absolutely nasty, rotten things? Where do you get off saying such crap about a dead girl you don't even know?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Some people are getting pretty upset over this thread, but before you flame do two things: report a post you think is in violation, and take a walk away from the keyboard.

Warning: personal attacks will not be tolerated... also, ANY needlessly inflammatory phrasings may be infracted if any mod believes it rises to the level of baiting or trolling, hereafter.

Everybody take a deep breath and a step back, mmkay? Don't make me bring out the Hammer.




movie-thor-hammer-big.jpg
 
i wish i were there to help her...................
Although your sentiment is probably shared by many, exactly what do you think you could have done?
She was already messed up as evidenced by her actions/activity.
There is no way you could have been with this person 24/7 for the rest of yours, or her life.
 
I don't think many of you know the pain of being completely outcast in such a way. I was bullied my entire life by kids, and then family, and even teachers. I didn't become stronger, just a social outcast who can't hold a job because I can't relate to people. I remember going numb at one point in order to feel something other than pain.

I didn't cry, laugh, yell, or have any emotions for a year or more because the depression was so bad. I made imaginary worlds where people cared about me and daydreamed constantly, playing with pencils and ppper in 7th grade and making up new worlds. I knew not to talk to kids or sit with anyone at lunch from elementary to 8th grade. If I hadn't made my imaginary world and immersed myself in both my studies and writting, I wouldn't have made it through. I can't look back on that time to draw strength.from it and wish my childhood had been different everyday. It caused me PTSD and chronic insomnia (as I write I haven't slept in 2 days). Yeah she chose to take her own life, but as a child, it was someone elses responsibility to protect her, when she couldn't protect herself.

This isn't a temporary problem. I'm living proof i' can affect your whole life into adulthood.
Sorry to hear about your personal problems and I seriously doubt anyone disagrees with you about the effects of your situation.
Doesn't change the fact that it was her own responsibility. No one else's.




That "lady" was a 12/13 year old 7th grader who had a momentary lapse of judgement coerced by a pedophile.
No dear! Have you not bothered to read that which has come before? Your facts are wrong.

She was 15. And the acts of the harasser are far removed in time.
Her complaints were other than the harasser.


And secondly. You do not know if the guy is a pedophile or not. You would have known this if you had read what was posted prior to yours.



Has anyone explained the psyche of the average 12/13 year old prepubescent girl? They're all about social groups, fitting in, and don't have the capacity to be on their guard against stupid decisions and the longterm consequences thereof. It wasn't about sex but acceptance for one.

For two, assuming she died a virgin or even having only one sexual partner, flashing her boobs doesn't make her slut or an attention whore. Remember it took her a year to cave into this guy online. He was persistent and knew what he was doing.

For three, how would you know what this young lady was capable of given a more nurturing environment? Bullying is just another word for abuse and abused children generally achieve less and have more problrns in life than their "Meet the Jones'" , two parent, subhurbian peers.


This was an innocent life lost.
Oy Vey!
Please go and educate yourself about this girl and the situation.
It looks like Jerry has done some of it for you.
Regardless, I would suggest doing it on your own.
 
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There it is... All this talk about a "responsiblity" is just a way of masking what you really mean.
Incorrect. All this talk about "responsibility" is just that, talk of responsibility. Hers.
She is the only one responsible for her death. No one else.





Sometimes humanity sickens me, based on how little some care about suicide victims.
It does?
That's nice.
Maybe you can explain why society should care about those who decide to take their own life and how it benefits said society?



I doubt they can even comprehend what they're discussing, and it is likely true that they treat suicide flippantly, as though to them life has no meaning.
And while you are attempting to do the above, please include why everybody should have the same views on life that you do.


OK, that's just ****ing disgusting. How could you say such absolutely nasty, rotten things? Where do you get off saying such crap about a dead girl you don't even know?
If it is true it doesn't matter if it is disgusting. The truth should be known, not hidden to paint a different picture.
Painting a different picture other than the truth is also disgusting. Hiding it is far more disgusting than letting something disgusting be known, or stating ones opinion of it. Therefore your lambasting is falls into the category of being disgusting.
 
Although your sentiment is probably shared by many, exactly what do you think you could have done?
She was already messed up as evidenced by her actions/activity.
There is no way you could have been with this person 24/7 for the rest of yours, or her life.

i dont have to be by your side everytime to help you get rid of a problem. she says she needs someone .i think she just needed an understanding and adoring family..but if you have not a family fulfilling these essential needs ,any person who understands and listens to you can be helpful enough
 
Really?
Anonymous doesn't even know if they have the right person and you think they did a greater good and admire them?
Wow!

What is your basis for questioning their level of certainty?
 
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