The bullies win again[W710; 739]

Rainman05 said:

I see you either do not read my posts or I am not clear enough.

Let me be clear.

I am AGAINST institutionalized punishment, especially at the magnitude you desire, of bullies because they are:
a) children
b) citizens
c) like a) specified, they are children. They are not mature. In very rare cases can they be held fully responsible for their actions because most do not forsee what consequences their actions can have.

So I am against having the GOVERNMENT come in and regulate, through programs and policies, how bullies should be treated... and I repeat, especially at the level you are proposing.

THAT BEING SAID:

I am not saying that whoever behaves inappropriately towards their colleagues, teachers or parents should be left unpunished. I am all for letting teachers slap the kid who mistreats his colleagues or teachers. Dismiss them from class or expel them without permission to come near school grounds ever again. I am against allowing them to beaten by teachers. I am however of the opinion that parents should be allowed to administer corporal punishment to their children WHEN there is NO OTHER WAY and all other options have been EXHAUSTED. I am not pro-abuse but against abuse. So I am against child-abuse but not against a good spanking if there is no other way to go about it. Ofc, there are age restrictions. Never for kids under 14yrs old for instance.

I am also pro-military school for children who behave poorly both in the academic sphere and the behavioral sphere. I am AGAINST sending them to jail before they are 18. I am also against giving them a permanent penal record before they are 18 (unless they do first degree murder or something on that level. bullying, though it may result in suicide, is not the same, not by far).

Ultimately, a suicide has multiple parties to blame for especially in this case. I cannot rule out the person who killed herself as being blameless. She is to blame for numerous things and carried the last drop of the blame with her to her grave. Her parents carry a large deal of the blame and the police carry a large deal of blame too. And also, the mature person who blackmailed her. The least amount of blame is carried by the gealous girlfriend of the guy who the girl in the video fell for and the other kids. They are NOT her keepers. They do deserve to be punished with suspended from class and maybe a lower grade... as well as being forced to attend correctional classes for their behaviour. But other than that, no. They were underrage and could not possibly, in any way, forsee that this would happen. Professional psychiatrists and her parents couldn't figure out that she was depressed dammit and you want 14-15 yrs old kids to figure it out?


I think your personal emotions get in the way of a reasonable argument here and you are blindsided to certain aspects. The WORST way to handle such a situation is to have the government handle it. They cannot handle the most basic of things. Don't EVER rely on the government to solve your problems.

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I don't care if you think "they're children." You minimalize it. You can't even call them for what they are: bullies. Why is that?

I don't care if "they're citizens." A lot of criminals are citizens, too.

Put these bullies in Juvy for a year. Or put them in jail.

Obviously you plan to do nothing. The government can enact laws that will actually, you know, do something to stop this nonsense.

Parents are not doing enough. Our current measures are not enough.

Unlike you I don't blame the victim.

You do nothing. You don't care because it's not your problem. In truth you honestly don't give a **** about the girl or what happened. Did you even watch the video entirely? Your solutions aren't enough, and because of it more kids will die. But since you don't care, it's alright.

I think your lack of emotions and inability to address the problem gets in the way of solving the problem. You're left blindsided because you see this dead girl as just another dead "thing" associated with the blight of bullying. The BEST way to actually solve this problem is to have the government enact laws to STOP and PUNISH bullying. Don't EVER rely on doing nothing to solve your problems.

"Yup, she's dead. Let's do nothing and move on."

PirateMk1 said:

The girls if any charges should be brought should be brought up on assult. IE. they physically harmed another person. The law that you quoted quite frankly disturbes me, as it is very vague so say the least. My barber and I could be charged under this law for the give and take we have. Some of the things we say to each other if others didnt know our history would be considered VERY harrasing, and down right offensive sometimes. Its just the way we happen to roll. There happens to be a couple of funny stories from that give and take and the reactions of other people by the way. That said putting people, especially young adults in prison for essintially atrotious behavior, I find that to be distrubing. Its bad law as far as I am concerend, from what it tries to punish to its construction.

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Each situation is fact sensitive and the law is applied to those facts.

Wake said:

I don't care if you think "they're children." You minimalize it. You can't even call them for what they are: bullies. Why is that?

I don't care if "they're citizens." A lot of criminals are citizens, too.

Put these bullies in Juvy for a year. Or put them in jail.

Obviously you plan to do nothing. The government can enact laws that will actually, you know, do something to stop this nonsense.

Parents are not doing enough. Our current measure are not enough.

Unlike you I don't blame the victim.

You do nothing. You don't care because it's not your problem. In truth you honestly don't give a **** about the girl or what happened. Did you even watch the video entirely? Your solutions aren't enough, and because of it more kids will die. But since you don't care, it's alright.

I think your lack of emotions inability to address the problem gets in the way of solving the problem. You're left blindsided because you see this dead girl as just another dead "thing" associated with the blight of bullying. The BEST way to actually solve this problem is to have the government enact laws to STOP and PUNISH bullying. Don't EVER rely on doing nothing to solve your problems.

"Yup, she's dead. Let's do nothing and move on."

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I fear you are wasting your 'breath'.

Why wasn't someone like me around?

If I ever saw that happen, even when I was in middle school... I would be her friend and stick up for her. I would also beat those kids up.

Wake said:

I don't care if you think "they're children." You minimalize it. You can't even call them for what they are: bullies. Why is that?

I don't care if "they're citizens." A lot of criminals are citizens, too.

Put these bullies in Juvy for a year. Or put them in jail.

Obviously you plan to do nothing. The government can enact laws that will actually, you know, do something to stop this nonsense.

Parents are not doing enough. Our current measure are not enough.

Unlike you I don't blame the victim.

You do nothing. You don't care because it's not your problem. In truth you honestly don't give a **** about the girl or what happened. Did you even watch the video entirely? Your solutions aren't enough, and because of it more kids will die. But since you don't care, it's alright.

I think your lack of emotions inability to address the problem gets in the way of solving the problem. You're left blindsided because you see this dead girl as just another dead "thing" associated with the blight of bullying. The BEST way to actually solve this problem is to have the government enact laws to STOP and PUNISH bullying. Don't EVER rely on doing nothing to solve your problems.

"Yup, she's dead. Let's do nothing and move on."

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Ok. You caught me. That was exactly what I wanted to say. Nothing for the bullies. Nothing at all. I guess you missed 2 paragraphs but whatever. I won't push for this topic with you beyond this final comment.

I will cease this discussion with you because I doubt I can convince you of the way I see things and you have no chance of convincing me because you are inviting the government to once again become MORE and MORE part of your life, or your family's life... or the life of private individuals in general, and I cannot support that. Based on prior evidence that whenever the government steps it, things usually end up going downhill. All you need to ask yourself, rhetorically, and provide an answer too. Do you want bullying to become a national issue that will be discussed by presidents during their debates and while they are on tours? Do you want that? Because if you do, this is the way to start. The other way, the correct way, in my point of view to do things and solve this problem is to get the government and its stupid regulations out of the school system and out of the parents attributes, as I said in the prior comment. Read it again to see what I mean.

That is all I have to add to this dicussion. You may have, at your discretion, the last word. Though I imagine you will repeat what you have said so far with minimizing and government interference.

Wake said:

It is not enough.

Giving would-be bullies something to truly fear... is.

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So being a bigger bully is the answer? I'd have to disagree with that.....a lot.

Lutherf said:

So being a bigger bully is the answer? I'd have to disagree with that.....a lot.

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Illogical. Punishing bullies through government-enforced laws isn't "bullying." It's like saying cops and soldiers are bullies, too.

Rainman05 said:

Ok. You caught me. That was exactly what I wanted to say. Nothing for the bullies. Nothing at all. I guess you missed 2 paragraphs but whatever. I won't push for this topic with you beyond this final comment.

I will cease this discussion with you because I doubt I can convince you of the way I see things and you have no chance of convincing me because you are inviting the government to once again become MORE and MORE part of your life, or your family's life... or the life of private individuals in general, and I cannot support that. Based on prior evidence that whenever the government steps it, things usually end up going downhill. All you need to ask yourself, rhetorically, and provide an answer too. Do you want bullying to become a national issue that will be discussed by presidents during their debates and while they are on tours? Do you want that? Because if you do, this is the way to start. The other way, the correct way, in my point of view to do things and solve this problem is to get the government and its stupid regulations out of the school system and out of the parents attributes, as I said in the prior comment. Read it again to see what I mean.

That is all I have to add to this dicussion. You may have, at your discretion, the last word. Though I imagine you will repeat what you have said so far with minimizing and government interference.

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I DETEST big government. I think Ron Paul/Gary Johnson are the best candidates for the POTUS.

But I do believe in law and order is the state's responsibility.

And I also believe that teenagers that are bullying others should be held to the EXACT same standards as adults who do the same thing.

If you beat someone else - that is assault.

That is illegal.

If you threaten someone else - that is illegal.

If you defame, defraud or slander another person - that is illegal/actionable.

I see ZERO reason why a 16 year old should be allowed to have the massive responsibilities of driving and being able to have children and yet be practically exempt from the responsibility of breaking the law.

Bullying is illegal (imo) and those that partake in this kind of behavior should be treated as adults under the law.

And if that means throwing a few dozen in jail for a few years until the message gets across to the teenaged masses for generations to come that this kind of behavior will NOT BE TOLERATED?

So be it.


The legal loophole that bullies now enjoy must be closed.

Wake said:

Illogical. Punishing bullies through government-enforced laws isn't "bullying." It's like saying cops and soldiers are bullies, too.

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There are already laws in place which cover assault and the distribution of child pornography. Use those laws but don't institute new ones.

DA60 said:

Generally, I disagree with this kind of 'mobism'.

But in this case, I agree with it.

This has gotten ridiculously out of hand and must be stopped at almost any cost.

Teenagers that bully must be treated as adults in the criminal system.

Expelling them is not enough. That just makes things worse often.

Throw them in court and in jail for assault, threats and anything else the legal system can think up.

This is illegal in the 'real' world.

It must be made illegal in the 'school world' as well.

Put cameras in every hallway and everywhere outdoors on school property. Put human monitors in bathrooms. Have people monitor public sites on the internet and look for the signs of online bullying. Spend the money to have people correlate this information and develop procedures for dealing with it. Contact the police at the first sign of illegality. And force the police and the courts to come down HARD on these bullies.

Right now, bullies in schools know they have little to fear from the legal system for their actions.

This freedom from fear must be removed.

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The reason the bullies are more numerous is because there are no consoquinces to bullying, from the people they are tormenting. Not from outside authority, but the people they are bullying.

There is a term in war, called reprisal. Basically it means you do something terrible to me or mine, the favor will be returned. When I was growing up I was told if I was in a fight or picked on someone, my ass was grass, and my parents were gona be the lawn mower. I took that message to heart. Unfortunately while I wasnt looking for trouble, it found me. My mother watched me get the crap beat out of me and I didnt lift a finger by some kid. Needless to say when I got home my parents corrected their error and said I dont start fights but I better try to end them. My dad gave me a piece of advice, he said if there is gona be trouble, and they are bigger than you, get the first punch in and keep swinging till you or they go down. I've used it a couple of times to good effect. Sufficet to say when I didnt fight back there was always trouble. When I did fight back, while I would inevitable get my head handed to me on a silver platter I wasnt screwed with near as often. How does this little story apply today? When I went to school my parents let the school district know in no uncertain terms after the ass kicking they witnessed I was allowed to engage in reprisal and defend myself, without repercussion and they would go on the warpath for me if I suffered adminstrative "correction". They told the school they did not care in the least what their policy was, my parents policy superceeded and that I was to defend myself if I was accousted. I had a couple of physical confrontations after but only one serious one where I used my dads advise. I got creamed. Bad. But I learned how to stand up for myself after my parents stood up for me. This girl didnt have anyone standing up for her helping her to stand up for herself. Thats why she fell. Its sad, but a factor. That said my point is this I went to school right around the time that the "No Tolerance" policies were going into effect, and despite the fact the schools would boot me if I got into a fight, regardless of who started it, my parents stepped up to the plate and scarred the bloody hell out of the adminstrators. The schools are bringing this on themselves and their students with these no tololerance, no retaliation policies. Thank god my parents had the forsight and termarity to tell the adminstartors to touch me for defending myself at their perial. Now days it seems most people seem to go along to get along and dont challenge administrators on this policy. Bullying is ALWAYS going to be with us, it is in fact a nessarry part of learning how to deal with life. Children should be taught like I was, you face your bully head on no matter how may or how big they and dont worry about the consequences till later. You fight back. It is a painful lesson, at least if was for me at least. I dont think I ever stood up to a bully in a physical confrontation and came out a victor physcially, however I was never really messed with by them afterwards either and all words, never physically. Coincedence maybe. They never stopped when I tried to get the authorities to itnterviene, but sure hell did when I stepped up for myself. I guess what I am trying to say is part of growing up is learning how to fight for yourself. The schools nowdays are doing their level best to discourage that nowdays, and thats why this issue is such a problem.

Some of these posts are absolutely disgusting, and some of you should be absolutely shamed!!! This was a CHILD who took her own life, and some of you have absolutely NO compassion for what pain she must have experienced in order to go through with it. I take some of these comments VERY personally, as I have been very personally effected by the suicide of someone very close to me. Selfishness has NOTHING to do with it morons!

You know, sometimes bad and tragic things happen to people, and there is NO ONE to blame. Why does there always HAVE to be someone who is to blame? It is a tragedy PERIOD. I'll bet some of you would be shocked to find out how may teenagers kill themselves every year. It is a SERIOUS problem.

Teenage suicide in the United States remains comparatively high in the 15 to 24 age group with 4,000 suicides in this age range in 2004, making it the third leading cause of death for those aged 15 to 24. By comparison, suicide is the 11th leading cause of death for all those age 10 and over, with 33,289 suicides for all US citizens in 2006.[1]

DA60 said:

Sounds like you were a bully and now you are trying to justify your actions.


There are about a billion other ways to 'make you tougher'.

And the amount of suffering and suicide they cause is gigantically less.


It's amazing how many truly stupid posts are coming out of this thread.

To call bullying 'character building' is asinine in the extremis.

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Sometimes when I was growing up I wished I could. Fortunately I was not capable of such feats of intimidation. Read my posts 47, 73, and 85. :golf Let me know I am a bully afterwards. Alright?

How does anyone know whether or not this girl suffered from a mental illness? She could have. Major depressive disorder is a chronic mental illness that is EXTREMELY difficult to treat, and is NEVER cured. Not to mention we are talking about a CHILD here who has the thoughts, feelings and emotions of a child. Have some effing compassion for the girl AND her family. The family is most likely SUFFERING terribly!

Imagine the state of mind and the suffering you must have to be in to actually take your own life. And another thing to remember is that MOST teenagers do not see beyond their own noses at times! They think that TODAY is everything and they don't think at ALL about tomorrow sometimes. It's a horrible tragedy whenever a person takes his/her own life, but it is TWICE as bad when it is a vulnerable child.

DA60 said:

Sounds like you were a bully and now you are trying to justify your actions.


There are about a billion other ways to 'make you tougher'.

And the amount of suffering and suicide they cause is gigantically less.


It's amazing how many truly stupid posts are coming out of this thread.

To call bullying 'character building' is asinine in the extremis.

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Sounds like you were NOT on the recieving end then. I have more experiance in this than I care to admit. That said bottom line this is a problem that adults should rarely if at all interceed in. Children need to learn to deal with it themselves. The schools should give them the room to defend themselves. Otherwise the bullyies wil keep right on being bullyies. Its a harsh life lesson, but one well worth learning.

Peter Grimm said:

This is why public schools are garbage, and private schools are a LOT better.

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So, kids don't get bullied in private schools now? :lamo

My view on bullying is...complicated. I was born with one ear. Called microtia, though, back then, they didn't really have a name for it, as they didn't recognize it as a genetic dissorder. Anway, though, as you can guess, my nickname all through my young life, well...one ear. Creative, right? These days, I've moved on to...one ear the pirate. ONLY because, after saying it, I get to yell "AARRRRGG!"

I was bullied. A LOT. And the person I am, which, I would describe myself as strong, empathetic to a point, direct, determined, and moderately funny...is a result of being bullied. These qualities that I just listed...are all the DIRECT result of this. I don't know who I would be without my past. I am fighter, through and through. I'm tough. I'm the guy that endures on nothing more than grit, long after others quit. These are things that have made me successful, while others around me fail, many of whom are better suited to succeed than I, in so many ways. In short, I wouldn't change a damn thing about myself, which means not changing a thing about my past...especially the bullying.

Having JUST said that, however, if I find out someone is doing the same to my son (who was born with the same condition), they are gonna have a fight on their hands, either from me, or from my son.

It's funny, actually. My wife is very active in a facebook microtia group, and they had a northeast meet up a couple months ago. She wanted me to go, because the organizer of the group has listened to my wife talk about me, and thinks I would be someone good for these parents and kids to ask questions of. But I KNEW what so many of the questions were going to be...about this very subject. And frankly, I just didn't want to go. But, hey, she made me, lol. And at first, the questions were all about what it's like, etc etc. How to cope, if I felt that my options have been limited by it at all, etc. Eventually, though, the subject of bullying came up. And the spot light got put on me.


And I told them.


Get in a fight.

PirateMk1 said:

Sometimes when I was growing up I wished I could. Fortunately I was not capable of such feats of intimidation. Read my posts 47, 73, and 85. :golf Let me know I am a bully afterwards. Alright?

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I did not say you were a bully. I said (based on your post) that you sounded like a bully justifying his actions.

Put it this way...if you never have anyone to stand up to, how do you ever learn to stand up for yourself?

It's not so much condoning bullying, as I'll gleefully pound caught bullies right into the grass...

It's a question of how we develop into the people we are.

PirateMk1 said:

Sounds like you were NOT on the recieving end then. I have more experiance in this than I care to admit. That said bottom line this is a problem that adults should rarely if at all interceed in. Children need to learn to deal with it themselves. The schools should give them the room to defend themselves. Otherwise the bullyies wil keep right on being bullyies. Its a harsh life lesson, but one well worth learning.

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I am not going to pointlessly debate with someone whose mind is made up.

To suggest society should just sit back and let gangs of students beat the crap out of/threaten/intimidate defenseless teenagers and let those that are beaten just 'deal with it' is asinine.

So if a street gang beats up a neighbor, and they are all 18... That is illegal to you and the police should be involved.

But if all concerned are 17 and in school...that is legal to you and none of the law's business?

Ridiculous imo.

DA60 said:

I am not going to pointlessly debate with someone whose mind is made up.

To suggest society should just sit back and let gangs of students beat the crap out of/threaten/intimidate defenseless teenagers and let those that are beaten just 'deal with it' is asinine.

So if a street gang beats up a neighbor, and they are all 18... That is illegal to you and the police should be involved.

But if all concerned are 17 and in school...that is legal to you and none of the law's business?

Ridiculous imo.

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Maybe I am missing something here, are we talking about garden variety bullyies or street gangs. They are two totally diffrent breed of fish.

KevinKohler said:

My view on bullying is...complicated. I was born with one ear. Called microtia, though, back then, they didn't really have a name for it, as they didn't recognize it as a genetic dissorder. Anway, though, as you can guess, my nickname all through my young life, well...one ear. Creative, right? These days, I've moved on to...one ear the pirate. ONLY because, after saying it, I get to yell "AARRRRGG!"

I was bullied. A LOT. And the person I am, which, I would describe myself as strong, empathetic to a point, direct, determined, and moderately funny...is a result of being bullied. These qualities that I just listed...are all the DIRECT result of this. I don't know who I would be without my past. I am fighter, through and through. I'm tough. I'm the guy that endures on nothing more than grit, long after others quit. These are things that have made me successful, while others around me fail, many of whom are better suited to succeed than I, in so many ways. In short, I wouldn't change a damn thing about myself, which means not changing a thing about my past...especially the bullying.

Having JUST said that, however, if I find out someone is doing the same to my son (who was born with the same condition), they are gonna have a fight on their hands, either from me, or from my son.

It's funny, actually. My wife is very active in a facebook microtia group, and they had a northeast meet up a couple months ago. She wanted me to go, because the organizer of the group has listened to my wife talk about me, and thinks I would be someone good for these parents and kids to ask questions of. But I KNEW what so many of the questions were going to be...about this very subject. And frankly, I just didn't want to go. But, hey, she made me, lol. And at first, the questions were all about what it's like, etc etc. How to cope, if I felt that my options have been limited by it at all, etc. Eventually, though, the subject of bullying came up. And the spot light got put on me.


And I told them.


Get in a fight.

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Theres a technical term for that advise its called reprisal. I say thats the best advise of the forum. I am glad you gave those people that advise. :good_job::clap: You said it better than I could by far. Thnx.

Lutherf said:

There are already laws in place which cover assault and the distribution of child pornography. Use those laws but don't institute new ones.

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Neither of which apply in this or most cases of severe bullying. verbal abuse and torment not physical read the posts.

KevinKohler said:

My view on bullying is...complicated. I was born with one ear. Called microtia, though, back then, they didn't really have a name for it, as they didn't recognize it as a genetic dissorder. Anway, though, as you can guess, my nickname all through my young life, well...one ear. Creative, right? These days, I've moved on to...one ear the pirate. ONLY because, after saying it, I get to yell "AARRRRGG!"

I was bullied. A LOT. And the person I am, which, I would describe myself as strong, empathetic to a point, direct, determined, and moderately funny...is a result of being bullied. These qualities that I just listed...are all the DIRECT result of this. I don't know who I would be without my past. I am fighter, through and through. I'm tough. I'm the guy that endures on nothing more than grit, long after others quit. These are things that have made me successful, while others around me fail, many of whom are better suited to succeed than I, in so many ways. In short, I wouldn't change a damn thing about myself, which means not changing a thing about my past...especially the bullying.

Having JUST said that, however, if I find out someone is doing the same to my son (who was born with the same condition), they are gonna have a fight on their hands, either from me, or from my son.

It's funny, actually. My wife is very active in a facebook microtia group, and they had a northeast meet up a couple months ago. She wanted me to go, because the organizer of the group has listened to my wife talk about me, and thinks I would be someone good for these parents and kids to ask questions of. But I KNEW what so many of the questions were going to be...about this very subject. And frankly, I just didn't want to go. But, hey, she made me, lol. And at first, the questions were all about what it's like, etc etc. How to cope, if I felt that my options have been limited by it at all, etc. Eventually, though, the subject of bullying came up. And the spot light got put on me.


And I told them.


Get in a fight.

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I hope you mean a fight to improve the situation or to call out the bullyies to the school. Physical is just repeating the cycle.

wolfman24 said:

Neither of which apply in this or most cases of severe bullying. verbal abuse and torment not physical read the posts.

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Where are you getting that? The girl had naked pictured of her distributed across the web. Presumably she was a minor when that happened so it's kiddie porn. Furthermore she was beaten and left in a ditch. That's assault.

Did you watch the video?