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Thread: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

  1. #851
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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I get that, but you really could make that argument about quite a lot of things. E.g. fistfights on the playground (assault/battery), stealing someone's lunch money (larceny/robbery), etc, etc. There are far less severe ways to approach childhood misbehavior that don't involve the legal system. This situation, is, if anything, less intentionally bad (from the perspective of the kids involved). If a child is stealing from someone, or beating them up, they know what they're doing is harmful (unless they're sociopaths). If they're taking pictures of each other without clothes on, they may genuinely not understand why that might be harmful. From a legal perspective, it's a much less criminal thing than the more overt crimes I mentioned. Given that, it makes more sense to deal with the issue in a non-legal context.
    It's the permanence of the photos I think that get me more than anything. I do get where you are coming from about the violence, larceny, etc. but I dunno, those things go away after the fact. In this particular case the girl is dead because of the behaviors and her pictures are permanently out there, it's just something that there is no easy fix for IMO.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    The "sexting" craze (I hope) usually involves kids in middle and high school, which is bad enough -- but this crap of taking naked photos for purposes of bullying and shaming can happen in the 2nd grade.

    My kid supports a "no cell phones on school property" rule, backed up by jammers and security.




    I would be homicidal.
    1) It's scary what kids are able to get into now. 2) I would also be homicidal, but sick first.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It's the permanence of the photos I think that get me more than anything. I do get where you are coming from about the violence, larceny, etc. but I dunno, those things go away after the fact. In this particular case the girl is dead because of the behaviors and her pictures are permanently out there, it's just something that there is no easy fix for IMO.
    There's definitely no easy fix. And no matter what anyone does, things are going to happen that are awful. But I think this kind of thing gets really really tricky when you get the law involved directly. It has a nasty habit of potentially screwing the victim. It's not like it's just the photo-taker who is potentially in legal trouble. Sometimes (under currently existing law) it's the person in the photo. There have been cases involving teenage girls in possession of photos they've taken of themselves getting busted for child-porn. That's just messed up. Obviously 14 year old girls really shouldn't be taking naked photos of themselves and sending them to other people, but punishing them as if they're pedophiles is kind of insane.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    There's definitely no easy fix. And no matter what anyone does, things are going to happen that are awful. But I think this kind of thing gets really really tricky when you get the law involved directly. It has a nasty habit of potentially screwing the victim. It's not like it's just the photo-taker who is potentially in legal trouble. Sometimes (under currently existing law) it's the person in the photo. There have been cases involving teenage girls in possession of photos they've taken of themselves getting busted for child-porn. That's just messed up. Obviously 14 year old girls really shouldn't be taking naked photos of themselves and sending them to other people, but punishing them as if they're pedophiles is kind of insane.
    Of course it is, at 9 years old. At 15, 16, it's not as easy to see this is never appropriate -- and if you have a teenager, I can promise you, they have had a naked photo of a classmate on their cell and the bystanders who are sent these images are "just as guilty" in the eyes of the law.

    Parents: talk to the child. Drag them down to sit with an ADA, if need be. Hell, arrange a visit to the county jail. Do what you need to to get this through their thick heads.

    And:

    If you photo your new baby naked on a bearskin rug, as parents have been doing since cameras were invented, DO NOT UPLOAD those photos. YOU are a "child pornographer" under the law as well.

    Lastly, at least one school that issued laptops to students used coding that turned the webcam on randomly, for security purposes. I would order a laptop that has no webcam, if they are available, and if not, make sure the programming of that device is removed.


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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Of course it is, at 9 years old. At 15, 16, it's not as easy to see this is never appropriate -- and if you have a teenager, I can promise you, they have had a naked photo of a classmate on their cell and the bystanders who are sent these images are "just as guilty" in the eyes of the law.
    The part in bold gets tricky when you start to think about why child-porn laws exist to begin with. To be clear, I'm talking specifically about the punishment that's appropriate for the person who makes the picture. Most of the time, we're talking about a girl uploading a picture of herself. Since child porn laws exist to protect children (and, let's face it, mostly that's going to involve girls, and frequently teenage girls) it seems ludicrous to me to punish a girl who voluntarily exposes herself as if she were a predator preying on herself. Again - that's obviously a dumbass thing for the girl to have done, but it emphatically does not remotely warrant the treatment that a genuine predator deserves. The law as it stands doesn't really make that distinction.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    The part in bold gets tricky when you start to think about why child-porn laws exist to begin with. To be clear, I'm talking specifically about the punishment that's appropriate for the person who makes the picture. Most of the time, we're talking about a girl uploading a picture of herself. Since child porn laws exist to protect children (and, let's face it, mostly that's going to involve girls, and frequently teenage girls) it seems ludicrous to me to punish a girl who voluntarily exposes herself as if she were a predator preying on herself. Again - that's obviously a dumbass thing for the girl to have done, but it emphatically does not remotely warrant the treatment that a genuine predator deserves. The law as it stands doesn't really make that distinction.
    Yup, that's a problem -- this is the lunacy of zero tolerance laws, but as to child porn, it's one of the very few areas in the law where I think a bright line is appropriate.

    Now, as to what should happen to our "child pornographers" who actually ARE children and who disseminate only photos of themselves.....clearly, something less than what we do to adults, and something more than nothing at all.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    I'm just not a huge fan of creating new civil remedies -- I'm not opposed to it, of course, but these behaviors seem criminal to me, and crime is better deterred by a prison sentence than a lawsuit. If the first priority is to stop the behavior and protect the child, a lawsuit is a poor substitute for an arrest.

    That said, these social networking sites that allow kids on -- facebook will allow a kid as young as 13 to join -- in my mind owe a duty to the children they attract, to protect them. We all know they don't -- none of the major social networking sites will ban a member for harrassment. The owners of these companies need to feel it in the pocketbook when they design staffing and coding plans that create an unreasonable risk.

    But for me, the bottom line is, these predatory adults should be sent to prison.
    Without some civil access, criminal prosecution is almost impossible because of trying to gain identity. The other problem is often the bullies are young teens themselves for which criminal prosecutions are particularly difficult and hardly worth the effort of going into federal court to try to get the offender's IP address - if that will even do any good.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Without some civil access, criminal prosecution is almost impossible because of trying to gain identity. The other problem is often the bullies are young teens themselves for which criminal prosecutions are particularly difficult and hardly worth the effort of going into federal court to try to get the offender's IP address - if that will even do any good.
    It'd be terrific if ISPs would voluntarily cooperate with law enforcement. I do not support an ISP giving my IP address to every Tom, Dick and Harry who asks for it -- but if the Cleveland Police department asks ATT for it, they should be given the information.

    Bear in mind, too, that DP (and facebook, and MySpace, etc.) all have the IP addresses on everyone who has ever posted there, and we could ask those companies for more cooperation.

    We could even make that a legal requirement via a new law on the operation of an ISP or a social networking site that solicits membership from the US, regardless of where the servers are physically located.


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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]



    Just imagine what issues we'll face when Person A in Toledo can feel Person B in Japan?

  10. #860
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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    There's definitely no easy fix. And no matter what anyone does, things are going to happen that are awful. But I think this kind of thing gets really really tricky when you get the law involved directly. It has a nasty habit of potentially screwing the victim. It's not like it's just the photo-taker who is potentially in legal trouble. Sometimes (under currently existing law) it's the person in the photo. There have been cases involving teenage girls in possession of photos they've taken of themselves getting busted for child-porn. That's just messed up. Obviously 14 year old girls really shouldn't be taking naked photos of themselves and sending them to other people, but punishing them as if they're pedophiles is kind of insane.
    You raise good points here, I tend to agree and don't believe in getting too legal for problems involving children. I just don't see a fix to this without enforcing consequences, the only other thing possible could be for schools to address the issue and reinforce that these behaviors can lead to bad results, furthermore the permanence of these mistakes cannot be understated.

    EDIT - substitute involving children with committed by children.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 10-20-12 at 02:28 AM.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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