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Thread: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Uhhh...yeah. That's harassment.

    Why make bullying a new crime?
    An excellent question.

    The answer is, in every case we have discussed, the law does not now exist that would permit a prosecution, except that we could charge the 9 year who took a photo of her naked classmate with child pornography.

    Stalking, harrassment, terroristic threats, etc. -- these laws do sometimes get used to prosecute cyber-bullying, but they are most useful on the least dangerous types: peer to peer bullying. Law enforcement and criminal justice need another tool in the tool bag to get the adults who target children on the net -- something that criminalizes speech they know is directed at a child and is reasonably foreseeably creating a risk of grave harm to the child.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Uhhh...yeah. That's harassment.

    Why make bullying a new crime?
    kind of agree here. Bullying in itself is realisticallly a systematic harassment/torture system which engages in multiple criminal activities. For instance, physical bullies engage in assault, battery, extortion, and other variants of those physical abuse statues. Mental abusers engage in but not limited to' extortion, blackmail, harassement, voyeurism, (in this case, child porn), statutory sex offenses, (civil) willful mental anguish, etc.

    I don't think we get anywhere by making bullying a seperate crime, but rather by enforcing and re-enforcing criminal statutes under all circumstances to hold bullys accountable for their actions.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    An excellent question.

    The answer is, in every case we have discussed, the law does not now exist that would permit a prosecution, except that we could charge the 9 year who took a photo of her naked classmate with child pornography.

    Stalking, harrassment, terroristic threats, etc. -- these laws do sometimes get used to prosecute cyber-bullying, but they are most useful on the least dangerous types: peer to peer bullying. Law enforcement and criminal justice need another tool in the tool bag to get the adults who target children on the net -- something that criminalizes speech they know is directed at a child and is reasonably foreseeably creating a risk of grave harm to the child.
    Malicious intent is the key word. If an adult willfully engages in behaviors that endanger a child's well being they can be charged accordingly, including negligence, physical abuse, mental abuse, or indifference. All crimes in the 50 states punishable by law.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Malicious intent is the key word. If an adult willfully engages in behaviors that endanger a child's well being they can be charged accordingly, including negligence, physical abuse, mental abuse, or indifference. All crimes in the 50 states punishable by law.
    No, not as we sit here today. Not if the adult uses the internet to torture the child -- but that's the law I want.

    What we call the crime, how severely we punish it, that's something I'd be very flexible about, because I think if Lori Drew had had to do even 6 months in the city jail, the deterrent on other adults would be significant.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    No, not as we sit here today. Not if the adult uses the internet to torture the child -- but that's the law I want.

    What we call the crime, how severely we punish it, that's something I'd be very flexible about, because I think if Lori Drew had had to do even 6 months in the city jail, the deterrent on other adults would be significant.
    I dunno, to me internet speech is still speech. The things done to this particular girl are not protected, any judge that would differentiate internet publication from say, running an ad with the girl's breasts and personal information is a moron. So far we have child porn, harassment, defamation, and seemingly extortion, I don't know how an extra law puts any more weight on existing ones but am willing to hear what more we can do.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I dunno, to me internet speech is still speech. The things done to this particular girl are not protected, any judge that would differentiate internet publication from say, running an ad with the girl's breasts and personal information is a moron. So far we have child porn, harassment, defamation, and seemingly extortion, I don't know how an extra law puts any more weight on existing ones but am willing to hear what more we can do.
    There have been some state laws passed since Megan Meier died, but at the time, the existing harrassment laws, etc., all contemplated real-life face to face behavior. The other problem is, we have no overarching federal law and that can create tremendous jurisdiction issues.

    Lori Drew was prosecuted under a computer fraud law, and the theory was that she had been deceptive in creating a false profile for a 16 year old boy to use in luring Meghan. That behavior violated the MySpace TOS, but on appeal, the defense succeeded in arguing that fraud was not proven because Drew never obtained any property of value from the girl.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    There have been some state laws passed since Megan Meier died, but at the time, the existing harrassment laws, etc., all contemplated real-life face to face behavior. The other problem is, we have no overarching federal law and that can create tremendous jurisdiction issues.

    Lori Drew was prosecuted under a computer fraud law, and the theory was that she had been deceptive in creating a false profile for a 16 year old boy to use in luring Meghan. That behavior violated the MySpace TOS, but on appeal, the defense succeeded in arguing that fraud was not proven because Drew never obtained any property of value from the girl.
    Hmm. Okay, I admit that is tricky. Fraud isn't just about monetary gain, though if a law is written too narrowly that does effect the outcome, fraud is in it's most general definition any illicit gain whether that is financial, emotional, etc. and legally should be accounted for so I can agree with revisiting current law to incorporate any frauds committed inducing harm or illicit information gathering/dissimination. I'm not a fan of further empowering the federal government BUT because of the reach of the internet have no problem with federal fraud laws being incorporated and expanded to protect people from computerized harmful activity, however I will say that cyber law is pretty stout and carries heavy federal penalties as is.

    IMO we can extend "vis a vis" laws to internet activity being that it is a form of communication/socialization to include bullying, harassment, etc. The problem I have with adding brand new laws is the process itself. I tend to be a fan of incorporation of existing law instead.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Hmm. Okay, I admit that is tricky. Fraud isn't just about monetary gain, though if a law is written too narrowly that does effect the outcome, fraud is in it's most general definition any illicit gain whether that is financial, emotional, etc. and legally should be accounted for so I can agree with revisiting current law to incorporate any frauds committed inducing harm or illicit information gathering/dissimination. I'm not a fan of further empowering the federal government BUT because of the reach of the internet have no problem with federal fraud laws being incorporated and expanded to protect people from computerized harmful activity, however I will say that cyber law is pretty stout and carries heavy federal penalties as is.

    IMO we can extend "vis a vis" laws to internet activity being that it is a form of communication/socialization to include bullying, harassment, etc. The problem I have with adding brand new laws is the process itself. I tend to be a fan of incorporation of existing law instead.
    I agree -- existing law is always superior IF it can reach far enough. At this point, we can't do that, though it's hard to believe the adult who bullied the girl in the Op won't be facing child porn charges at the very least -- and the penalties for those are draconian.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    I agree -- existing law is always superior IF it can reach far enough. At this point, we can't do that, though it's hard to believe the adult who bullied the girl in the Op won't be facing child porn charges at the very least -- and the penalties for those are draconian.
    Absolutely, child porn is 5-25 in itself depending on the judge and well deserved. The reason I have a problem with creating new law is that it always seems to get convoluted and miss something, leading to wasted time always rehashing the flawed statute. Somewhere in our history we got certain things right, like harassment, assualt, battery, etc. and if we go back to the things we did well and add on for newer techs I think we find the closest to perfect balance.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Absolutely, child porn is 5-25 in itself depending on the judge and well deserved. The reason I have a problem with creating new law is that it always seems to get convoluted and miss something, leading to wasted time always rehashing the flawed statute. Somewhere in our history we got certain things right, like harassment, assualt, battery, etc. and if we go back to the things we did well and add on for newer techs I think we find the closest to perfect balance.
    Criminal law is very hard to write -- I think you have a terrific idea. It's too late to prosecute Lori Drew, but hopefully, this evil man will do time.

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