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Thread: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    No, but he should be tried for stalking and harassment of a minor.
    Also for owning and distributing child porn.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    No, but he should be tried for stalking and harassment of a minor.
    I was simply pointing out that there was little reason to argue about whether it was murder, in a legal sense, in response to a very emotionally charged discussion. Cooler heads will prevail before anyone is tried.

    I condemn him in a moral sense for something worse than murder. He, apparently, did this to several girls. It was a very cold, sadistic and callous form of torture.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    I've been cyberbullied before. It is very hurtful. My being cyberbullied never made me attempt suicide, but her situation looks like it is far worse.

    For all the people who are claiming "that slut deserved it, she is the only one responsible" then you obviously have zero understanding of psychology. Sure, a lot of people, even at that age, might not be driven to suicide by those actions. But something like that leaves a mark, being humiliated and demeaned by everyone around you. From her behavior it looks like she had emotional problems to begin with.

    Who gives a **** if she had sex? She was fifteen! Many teenagers aren't mature enough to understand that sex at that age is irresponsible (not immoral, it's just sex.) They get new feelings and aren't sure how to handle them. In no way did her behavior justify that creep's stalking of her. She flashed. So what? Only a big time loser would use a mistake like that to ruin her life.

    Obviously she does share some responsibility in the matter. Her flashing to an adult was a mistake, but not a grave one. Her sleeping with a kid was a mistake, but not a grave one. Killing yourself is never the answer. It is clear to me, though, that using her promiscuity against her in this thread is a thin veil for misogyny. In situations like this misogynists blame the woman. Every single ****ing time. "She was raped? Oh, well she shouldn't have been wearing slutty clothes, then! Guys have absolutely no self control and instantly are overtaken with lust when they see a woman walking with less clothing than expected. Hell, the jury should even acquit the guy, obviously her clothes wearing seduced him into violating her dignity!" "Oh, that teenage girl was harassed into committing suicide? Oh, she was a whore anyway. People who have sex a lot obviously contaminate our gene pool."

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    First time posting in the thread as well - I got a few pages in then skipped to the end, so apologies if I repeat anything that's been said already. The below is my (partly-rambling) thoughts on the topic, some of which I'm forming as I write this, and aren't aimed at anyone in particular (though a few seem to richly deserve it).

    Tricky question. The 'simple' answer is that everyone is responsible for their own actions, so the suicidee is responsible. However... it occurs to me that suicide is a major symptom of fairly traumatic depression, which is a mental illness, and those who suffer from mental illnesses have diminished responsibilty, depending on the severity of the illness (and to be so depressed as to commit suicide indicates pretty severe depression, by my reckoning!). As such, responsibility would at the very least be shared by others - those who caused the depression to occur in the first place, and those who allowed it to continue and worsen to such a degree that the outcome was suicide, even after (apparently) a previous failed attempt. Legally, I'd imagine that the blow would fall hardest on parents/social workers/school/those with legal responsibilities for the person. Ethically, I'd also point the finger at the hundreds of people who unknowingly (or worse, deliberately) contributed to the depression.

    At a guess... it depends. They could be obvious (clear mood swings, unexpected tears/outbursts, a shift in personality (especially from introvert to extravert or vice versa), self-harming) but I'd suspect that they could also be hidden entirely to the casual observer. I teach in a secondary school (age 11-18) in a large city in the UK, and several of our pupils are treated for one disorder or another - and it's not always obvious who.

    Again, a pooly-educated guess, but... hopeless - and feeling as if they have no alternatives. Not seeing the point in continuing; no light at the end of the tunnel.

    Because they don't believe it exists, or will work.

    NB: I'd also differentiate between those who threaten suicide and those who are genuinely suicidal. The two groups most certainly overlap, but there are also indiviuals whom only one apply to - and by treating both groups as the same, we either alienate or coddle those who only fit into one (and try to score cheap points on debate forums, it seems).

    NB2: For those who have never come across it, I'd strongly recomend watching the original play of An Inspector Calls (there is a film adaption, but it's not as good - nor is the more jazzed up version of the play which has become famous. The wiki summary is fairly good, but nowhere near as pogniant!). It's shamelessly socialist at times, and no doubt some will use that to critique it's message, but it has some points to make on suicide as well. It's certainly influenced what I've written here.

    How did I do?
    This is a very thoughtful answer. I will respond with my thoughts after I read others who have responded. And you did well.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Oh boy a quiz!!!!

    1) The person committing the suicide is responsible for the suicide.
    2) A suicidal person is usually someone who suffers from some form of depression. Sometimes this person has found themselves in a situation for which they feel they can not recover. Im having a hard time answering this question without using some of my answers for the next question. So I'll just move on... (lol)
    3) A suicidal person often feels a great deal of anxiety about the future for which they have led themselves to believe that the only way to fix the problem is through a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Sometimes the person feels that their death will cause grief to others who they blame for their state of mind, and it is their way of getting back at the people who put them in their situation. Sometimes a suicidal person cannot fathom or accept the upcoming consequences of their actions and would rather be dead then endure the punishment. The level of anxiety that a suicidal person feels over many levels of social interaction makes them feel as if they would rather be dead than face people, which is often why they hide themselves away.
    4) Often times suicidal people lose trust with everyone. They believe their problems are too great for anyone to help them with. They believe that nobody WANTS to help them, they believe they cannot be helped regardless, in some cases they don't want help (because they want those who they feel are responsible for their depression to suffer)..... I could think of some other stuff maybe...

    How am I doing? Probably not too good.

    I keep trying to think of points from the many "Suicide Prevention and Awareness" training courses I have had to take over my time in both the military and law enforcement.
    Actually, your answers were pretty good. Third one was the only one that was a little off the mark.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Let me be succinct.

    #1 It is the person committing the act.
    #2 They don't care.
    #3 They don't care.
    #4 They didn't care.
    Good. Let me be succinct. You are one of the ones that I stated are uneducated on this issue.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    OK. Now that some of the riff-raff have been exterminated from this thread, let's see if I can shed some light on this by answering my own questions. You might be surprised by some of the answers.

    And for full disclosure: I am a therapist who works primarily with teenagers and have been for 22+ years. I work with very difficult teens... difficult in the sense of depressed/suicidal. I have dealt with, probably, well over 100 suicide attempts... either from clients that I got AFTER their attempt, or clients who attempted while in treatment with me. In fact, on Monday of this week, I hospitalized a 17 year old girl for a pretty serious suicide attempt.

    Also, I wrote my final paper in graduate school on Suicidality.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    1) What person is responsible for the suicide?
    The person who committed suicide. I know, some of you may be surprised by this answer, but you must keep reading to understand the rationale. We are each responsible for our behaviors and how we chose to respond to our feelings... the FEELINGS are what is beyond our control. Example: if I could choose how I feel, I'd be happy all the time. Now, there is a sequence of events that occurs in situations like what happened to this girl: triggering event ---> interpretation/thoughts/feelings of that event ---> behavioral reaction to that event. The same event can happen to several different people, and each of those people will interpret the event differently... because of their life experiences, state of mind, or something else. This girl was bullied. Many people are. How someone takes that bullying is an individual response which leads to an individual act. This is why the act of suicide is the responsibility of the individual who commits suicide.

    Does the bully have any fault in this issue? For bullying, for sure. For contributing, for sure... however, there many be many other issues that also contributed. The bully is not to blame for the suicide. Now... and this is EXTREMELY important... the individual who commits suicide is also not to blame... it is their responsibility, though. This individual is a victim... a victim of bullying, a victim of their perceptions, undoubtedly based on other things. One does not blame the victim in these cases, but place responsibility on the one who acts.

    2) What are the characteristics of a suicidal person?
    This is where #1 starts to get a bit murky. One who attempts suicide has some significant mental health issues. Regardless of whether or not the act seemed to be a singular event, or something random, it's not. No one attempts suicide on a whim without some mental health issues being present. We have to remember that one of the basic instincts of life is survival. All animals have this, and for someone to behave in a way that contradicts this basic instinct, indicates that something more powerful than that is happening. The suicidal person cannot see a way out of their situation and has decided that ending their life is preferable to living in their situation. Now, this though, in and of itself, may be a sign of that mental illness, since the individual may be completely closed off to other possibilities.

    There is no suicide without mental illness. Therefore, this mitigates the complete responsibility of the individual. They are unable to make a rational decision because of their state of mind. This is one reason why I usually suggest to clients to NOT make any big, all encompassing decisions when being completely ruled by their unstable emotional state.

    Most suicidal people cannot see past their perceived hopelessness of their situation.

    3) How does that suicidal person feel?
    Hopeless. Depressed. Overwhelmed. But the overriding feeling is usually intense emotional pain. Consider this. You have a toothache... a bad one. All you want is for that pain to end. This is how a suicidal person feels... even more so. They will do ANYTHING for the pain that they are in, to end. Even kill themselves. For them, death is preferable to feeling in pain.

    They are also angry. I have theorized that suicide is often a desire to commit a homicide turned inwards. In many cases, the individual turns that anger towards someone else, on themselves. This is due to self-esteem, depression, and often a long period of feeling emotionally abused or beaten down.

    4) For one who completes a suicide, why would that person have not asked for help?
    Usually they do, sometimes directly, usually not. Suicidal feelings are very strange and if you haven't experienced them in some direct sort of way, it's hard to imagine them. They conflict with the basic instinct of survival, yet the individual can make themselves believe that they are completely logical. Sometimes it doesn't even occur to them to ask for help: suicide seems like the logical response to their situation.

    Sometimes they have asked for help, but do not receive the help they need. Lots of times people believe that these teens are just being dramatic. Rule #1 when dealing with suicidal teens: ALWAYS take their suicidal comments/gestured seriously. ALWAYS. Should I say it again? It is irrelevant as to whether they are being dramatic or not. They are communicating that they are NOT OK. So, it is certainly possible that they did seek help but were not heard.

    It is certainly possible that they are in such a hopeless state that they do not believe anyone can help them... so why bother saying anything. Again... their mental health issues overrule instincts... and what they've probably heard over and over: talk to someone.

    So, who's fault is it that the girl in the OP committed suicide? No one's. Who's responsibility? Hers. Who contributed to what happened to her? EVERYONE. Personally, I don't care about the blame and responsibility in this situation. It's pretty irrelevant. I'm more about how to prevent things like this from happening, and what to do about them after they happen. Assigning blame accomplishes ZERO. This is about mental illness, isolation, being aware of bullying, and taking our teens seriously. The blame and responsibility is pretty meaningless.

    Oh, and for anyone who made any comments about her behaviors. Irrelevant. Nothing to do with the issue at all. I could care less whether she had sex with no one, or 1000 guys. Does not mean that anyone had the right to harass her because of those behaviors... not did it mean that her response to that harassment was OK. This is what I mean. Blame is irrelevant.

    I hope this post provided you all with some information on this topic.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    OK. Now that some of the riff-raff have been exterminated from this thread, let's see if I can shed some light on this by answering my own questions. You might be surprised by some of the answers.

    And for full disclosure: I am a therapist who works primarily with teenagers and have been for 22+ years. I work with very difficult teens... difficult in the sense of depressed/suicidal. I have dealt with, probably, well over 100 suicide attempts... either from clients that I got AFTER their attempt, or clients who attempted while in treatment with me. In fact, on Monday of this week, I hospitalized a 17 year old girl for a pretty serious suicide attempt.

    Also, I wrote my final paper in graduate school on Suicidality.



    The person who committed suicide. I know, some of you may be surprised by this answer, but you must keep reading to understand the rationale. We are each responsible for our behaviors and how we chose to respond to our feelings... the FEELINGS are what is beyond our control. Example: if I could choose how I feel, I'd be happy all the time. Now, there is a sequence of events that occurs in situations like what happened to this girl: triggering event ---> interpretation/thoughts/feelings of that event ---> behavioral reaction to that event. The same event can happen to several different people, and each of those people will interpret the event differently... because of their life experiences, state of mind, or something else. This girl was bullied. Many people are. How someone takes that bullying is an individual response which leads to an individual act. This is why the act of suicide is the responsibility of the individual who commits suicide.

    Does the bully have any fault in this issue? For bullying, for sure. For contributing, for sure... however, there many be many other issues that also contributed. The bully is not to blame for the suicide. Now... and this is EXTREMELY important... the individual who commits suicide is also not to blame... it is their responsibility, though. This individual is a victim... a victim of bullying, a victim of their perceptions, undoubtedly based on other things. One does not blame the victim in these cases, but place responsibility on the one who acts.



    This is where #1 starts to get a bit murky. One who attempts suicide has some significant mental health issues. Regardless of whether or not the act seemed to be a singular event, or something random, it's not. No one attempts suicide on a whim without some mental health issues being present. We have to remember that one of the basic instincts of life is survival. All animals have this, and for someone to behave in a way that contradicts this basic instinct, indicates that something more powerful than that is happening. The suicidal person cannot see a way out of their situation and has decided that ending their life is preferable to living in their situation. Now, this though, in and of itself, may be a sign of that mental illness, since the individual may be completely closed off to other possibilities.

    There is no suicide without mental illness. Therefore, this mitigates the complete responsibility of the individual. They are unable to make a rational decision because of their state of mind. This is one reason why I usually suggest to clients to NOT make any big, all encompassing decisions when being completely ruled by their unstable emotional state.

    Most suicidal people cannot see past their perceived hopelessness of their situation.



    Hopeless. Depressed. Overwhelmed. But the overriding feeling is usually intense emotional pain. Consider this. You have a toothache... a bad one. All you want is for that pain to end. This is how a suicidal person feels... even more so. They will do ANYTHING for the pain that they are in, to end. Even kill themselves. For them, death is preferable to feeling in pain.

    They are also angry. I have theorized that suicide is often a desire to commit a homicide turned inwards. In many cases, the individual turns that anger towards someone else, on themselves. This is due to self-esteem, depression, and often a long period of feeling emotionally abused or beaten down.



    Usually they do, sometimes directly, usually not. Suicidal feelings are very strange and if you haven't experienced them in some direct sort of way, it's hard to imagine them. They conflict with the basic instinct of survival, yet the individual can make themselves believe that they are completely logical. Sometimes it doesn't even occur to them to ask for help: suicide seems like the logical response to their situation.

    Sometimes they have asked for help, but do not receive the help they need. Lots of times people believe that these teens are just being dramatic. Rule #1 when dealing with suicidal teens: ALWAYS take their suicidal comments/gestured seriously. ALWAYS. Should I say it again? It is irrelevant as to whether they are being dramatic or not. They are communicating that they are NOT OK. So, it is certainly possible that they did seek help but were not heard.

    It is certainly possible that they are in such a hopeless state that they do not believe anyone can help them... so why bother saying anything. Again... their mental health issues overrule instincts... and what they've probably heard over and over: talk to someone.

    So, who's fault is it that the girl in the OP committed suicide? No one's. Who's responsibility? Hers. Who contributed to what happened to her? EVERYONE. Personally, I don't care about the blame and responsibility in this situation. It's pretty irrelevant. I'm more about how to prevent things like this from happening, and what to do about them after they happen. Assigning blame accomplishes ZERO. This is about mental illness, isolation, being aware of bullying, and taking our teens seriously. The blame and responsibility is pretty meaningless.

    Oh, and for anyone who made any comments about her behaviors. Irrelevant. Nothing to do with the issue at all. I could care less whether she had sex with no one, or 1000 guys. Does not mean that anyone had the right to harass her because of those behaviors... not did it mean that her response to that harassment was OK. This is what I mean. Blame is irrelevant.

    I hope this post provided you all with some information on this topic.
    Excellent post, as were the posts of Aderleth and IanGB.

    I do feel better informed as a result of reading this thread, but also depressed at the trolling that has taken place.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Excellent post, as were the posts of Aderleth and IanGB.

    I do feel better informed as a result of reading this thread, but also depressed at the trolling that has taken place.
    Yes... Adlerleth, Ians... and Caine's posts were good and provided good information on this topic. The trolls have been sent packing from the thread... as they should be. The adults can now speak about this topic.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The bullies win again[W710; 739]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Yes... Adlerleth, Ians... and Caine's posts were good and provided good information on this topic. The trolls have been sent packing from the thread... as they should be. The adults can now speak about this topic.
    You're right, Caine's posts were thoughtful too.

    For my 2 cents, I believe that ascribing blame in these circumstances has no place in the discussion of what to do about suicidal teens. The bullying and internet harassment may well have been contributory factors to the state of mind the girl got into, and they should be dealt with by the relevant authorities. That the girl reacted to the external and internal circumstances with inappropriate and fatal decision-making was all about her, her mental illness and her impaired decision-making skills.

    I haven't read enough about this case to know whether any of the rampant promiscuity that the trolls accused her of has any basis in fact. All I've read are that she had some inappropriate contact with someone she met online. That in itself might be a symptom of her internal turmoil, or it might just be a mistake of youth which, in any case and in my experience, contained an awful lot of internal turmoil.

    I've no doubt that the people who loved her, and the professionals who were dealing with her, feel a horrible burden of failure at the outcome and do feel a terrible burden of responsibility for what happened. They WILL blame themselves, whether or not they did everything in their power to prevent this horrible outcome. I hope that they have people around them that can provide the calm perspective that you, and the other posters mentioned, have brought to this thread.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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