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America’s Dumbest War, Ever

wait...we know Obama? i thought he was hiding his college transcripts and true beliefs from us? and his birth certificate?
LOL. Good point. We know him from the day he entered the Oval Office. All else remains hidden. I believe that is sufficient to make the case that he would make the Rules of Engagement so tight as to make it impossible to win.
 
Good deceptions have that effect. I was an intelligence officer for most of my 20 year Army career. I also had some responsibilities for developing our deception doctrine. It was valuable to have one's opponents sift through all of the difficult, conflicting information in order to come, on their own, to the conclusions the deceivers want them to hold. Once your opponent is convinced, through his own brilliance, that Fact "A" is true and Fact "B" is untrue conflicting facts that counter those views are filtered out.

I believe that we became convinced because the scientists and program managers responsible for biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs were deceiving Hussein. In turn we were deceived as well.

On the plus side it has a happy ending. Iraq has an opportunity to grow into a free, and thriving country in the heart of the Middle East.

I understand you now,

Your actually very pro-American but in a way that's particularly nasty if not imperialist.
You don't see that setting an example as being a tyrant has it's counter effects. You probably also don't realise that most of the US is an undesirable crime ridden sh#thole.

First of all the UK Govt will never LIE for you like that again. You used them for the UN vote, they will never risk such worldwide unpopularity again for nothing in return unless there totally stupid.

In your thinking Deception is really another word for being treacherous.
You may love the short term benefits but every thief has it's day.

Your analysis of long term goals I feel lacks. Toppling Hussein was the good thing the rest of the conflict was simply not worth it. The same with Bin Laden, you should have left after the Northern Alliance had smacked the hell out of the Taliban. But no, let's stay 10 years to see ourselves decline. You do not understand the Afghani mentality in the slightest.

As my link earlier, the Iraq insurgency are killing still goes on just as it did. And so will the Taliban with or without you.

You seem to think 'forever' is the answer despite Iraq and Vietnam. You also don't get the idea that these terrorists are mainly based in Pakistan. You're not fighting a country anymore, your fighting a dispersed idea, a safe haven is in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere. Unless your going to throw down 4-5 front-lines which you can't afford in any case your proposition is futile.

You need to move with the action, not put down a forever marker. And FYI the Russians weren't ******s it was and has always been a futile war.

You have become the Redcoats marching out from Boston and your too stubborn to see it.
 
Then you won't mind if we try it just this one more time. After all, from your perspective it will make no difference. So let's agree to replace Democrats and RINOS with conservative Republicans.

Because conservative Republicans are an endangered species in Washington.
 
I understand you now,

Your actually very pro-American but in a way that's particularly nasty if not imperialist.
You don't see that setting an example as being a tyrant has it's counter effects. You probably also don't realise that most of the US is an undesirable crime ridden sh#thole.

First of all the UK Govt will never LIE for you like that again. You used them for the UN vote, they will never risk such worldwide unpopularity again for nothing in return unless there totally stupid.

In your thinking Deception is really another word for being treacherous.
You may love the short term benefits but every thief has it's day.

Your analysis of long term goals I feel lacks. Toppling Hussein was the good thing the rest of the conflict was simply not worth it. The same with Bin Laden, you should have left after the Northern Alliance had smacked the hell out of the Taliban. But no, let's stay 10 years to see ourselves decline. You do not understand the Afghani mentality in the slightest.

As my link earlier, the Iraq insurgency are killing still goes on just as it did. And so will the Taliban with or without you.

You seem to think 'forever' is the answer despite Iraq and Vietnam. You also don't get the idea that these terrorists are mainly based in Pakistan. You're not fighting a country anymore, your fighting a dispersed idea, a safe haven is in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere. Unless your going to throw down 4-5 front-lines which you can't afford in any case your proposition is futile.

You need to move with the action, not put down a forever marker. And FYI the Russians weren't ******s it was and has always been a futile war.

You have become the Redcoats marching out from Boston and your too stubborn to see it.

How depressing. I just spent an hour responding to this. The board said "nope" as I posted it and my effort is gone. Maybe tomorrow. I have a few other things I want to do today.
 
How many conservative Republicans can you name? Forty? Twenty?

In Washington? I doubt there are that many. Definitely an endangered species, maybe even extinct, like the ivory billed woodpecker. Occasionally, there is an unconfirmed sighting, but no one is sure whether they even still exist or not.
 
In Washington? I doubt there are that many. Definitely an endangered species, maybe even extinct, like the ivory billed woodpecker. Occasionally, there is an unconfirmed sighting, but no one is sure whether they even still exist or not.
Interesting thought about the ivory-billed woodpecker. One day I saw a woodpecker outside my window on a tree about 30 feet away. It had a long, ivory-colored bill. I made a quick mental list of its crown, throat, chest, and wing flash as it flew away. I then raced to my office and searched the net. My bird turned out to be a RINO. It was a very common bird in these parts of the woods much as the RINO is in washington. The birds looked similar but one was rare. The other, is a nuisance.
 
So, no proof for your unbelievable claims then? Okay. It is what I expected. You have appealed to authority. You have claimed near perfect knowledge. So show us the documents. Darn. They are classified aren't they? So the only ones we can see are posted on Wikileaks.

You cannot prove your claims. I cannot prove my claims. We know Bush. And we know Obama. My claims are more believable.

Oh, I see you have a fanclub, of one, Hi Dave.
You're the one that made the claim. Do you need to sit down or something? You can't even keep your own fabrications straight, you one term Marxist.
 
LOL. Good point. We know him from the day he entered the Oval Office. All else remains hidden. I believe that is sufficient to make the case that he would make the Rules of Engagement so tight as to make it impossible to win.

Rules of engagement started under Bush, and General Petraeus revised the rules under Obama, not much, but he certainly loosened them from what they were before. Petraeus revises rules | POLITICO 44
 
I cannot recall ever mentioning democracy. Democracy sucks. It is three wolves and two lambs voting on what is for dinner.

I think we need to define our goal as preventing the Taliban and Al Qaeda from controlling Afghanistan. For the long term I think developing free market capitalism and representative government are a great idea.

That isn't a proposal, that is just a talking point. What can Afghanistan export to generate income for its people other than opium? Free Market capitalism doesn't mean **** when their is nothing for the economy to base itself on.
 
A little off topic, but with the key role Pakistan plays in the conflict little analysis of the country has taken place.
 
That isn't a proposal, that is just a talking point. What can Afghanistan export to generate income for its people other than opium? Free Market capitalism doesn't mean **** when their is nothing for the economy to base itself on.


The huge presence of Oxycontin and Hydrocodone indicates to me that Afghanistan and free market capitalism are hand in hand. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it isn't done. Opium production went from approximately 290 tons per annum to over 7000 tons per annum under USA stewardship. The Media always says that the Talibun are growing the opium, but there was only 290 tons production when they were in control. You will recall that no bombs ever touched the well known opium warehouse near either Khost or Kandahar ( I don't remember exactly which of the two). I would expect that production to drop if the Taliban ever get influence in Kabul politics. My comment is just indicating that there is a product to base the economy on. Why hasn't the USA stopped this production. I would guess that we must be complicit and with a willing accomplice named Karzai.
 
A little off topic, but with the key role Pakistan plays in the conflict little analysis of the country has taken place.

Little analysis has taken place among whom? In the US government, Afghanistan and Pakistan are seen as inseparable. It's why most places don't have an Afghan shop or a Pakistan shop, they're usually called AFPAK shops.
 
Little analysis has taken place among whom? *In the US government, Afghanistan and Pakistan are seen as inseparable. *It's why most places don't have an Afghan shop or a Pakistan shop, they're usually called AFPAK shops.

Not all Afghani's are Pashtuns, it's actually pretty ignorant that you would group them all in like that.

As I was saying the US has made little analysis of Pakistan.

They dominate the South:
http://www.nps.edu/Programs/CCS/Docs/PDF Maps/RCSouthTribalmap07.pdf

This is a better tribal map:
BBC News | In Depth | War on Terror | Key Maps
 
Not all Afghani's are Pashtuns, it's actually pretty ignorant that you would group them all in like that.

No one did that. It's actually pretty ignorant that you'd think someone did.

As I was saying the US has made little analysis of Pakistan.

And I was telling you that you're wrong.
 
The huge presence of Oxycontin and Hydrocodone indicates to me that Afghanistan and free market capitalism are hand in hand. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it isn't done. Opium production went from approximately 290 tons per annum to over 7000 tons per annum under USA stewardship. The Media always says that the Talibun are growing the opium, but there was only 290 tons production when they were in control. You will recall that no bombs ever touched the well known opium warehouse near either Khost or Kandahar ( I don't remember exactly which of the two). I would expect that production to drop if the Taliban ever get influence in Kabul politics. My comment is just indicating that there is a product to base the economy on. Why hasn't the USA stopped this production. I would guess that we must be complicit and with a willing accomplice named Karzai.

Great post!

I can remember when Colin Powell hand delivered a check from the federal government for about $43 million. It was in gratitude for their spirited cooperation in the War On Drugs, we were told.

I had heard that through strict application of Sharia law, they had virtually eliminated poppy production in the country. And got a check from the US for it.

Anyway, I wonder how old that 290 figure was you use above?
 
No one did that. It's actually pretty ignorant that you'd think someone did.



And I was telling you that you're wrong.

Thanks OldWorldOrder,

AFPAK, great use of initials :roll:

Where's all the masterful US intel that's gonna win this war?

Hearts and minds? Popular support? Exit strategy? A capable ANA and police force?
2014 will be a frightening year.

BBC News - Will Afghan Koran row prove Nato's tipping point?

BBC News - Why Taliban are so strong in Afghanistan
 
Great post!

I can remember when Colin Powell hand delivered a check from the federal government for about $43 million. It was in gratitude for their spirited cooperation in the War On Drugs, we were told.

I had heard that through strict application of Sharia law, they had virtually eliminated poppy production in the country. And got a check from the US for it.

Anyway, I wonder how old that 290 figure was you use above?

CNN.com - U.S. : Afghan poppy production doubles - Nov. 28, 2003

"Poppy cultivation in Afghanistan doubled between 2002 and 2003 to a level 36 times higher than in the last year of rule by the Taliban, according to White House figures released Friday.

The area planted with poppies, used to make heroin and morphine, was 152,000 acres in 2003, compared with 76,900 acres in 2002 and 4,210 acres in 2001, the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy said in a statement"

If one does the math on 2001 and 4,210 acres and 2003 and 152,000 acres, the actual figure may be less than the 290 tons. I did remember reading the 290 ton figure but couldn't remember the original link. This one supports that figure however.
 
The huge presence of Oxycontin and Hydrocodone indicates to me that Afghanistan and free market capitalism are hand in hand. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it isn't done. Opium production went from approximately 290 tons per annum to over 7000 tons per annum under USA stewardship. The Media always says that the Talibun are growing the opium, but there was only 290 tons production when they were in control. You will recall that no bombs ever touched the well known opium warehouse near either Khost or Kandahar ( I don't remember exactly which of the two). I would expect that production to drop if the Taliban ever get influence in Kabul politics. My comment is just indicating that there is a product to base the economy on. Why hasn't the USA stopped this production. I would guess that we must be complicit and with a willing accomplice named Karzai.

This is almost entirely irrelevant to my post.
 

This is almost entirely irrelevant to my post.

"America's dumbest war?" Would a war that increases opium production be a smart war? On one hand we have a war on drugs and on the other we seem to be complicit in the production of drugs. Have I missed something? If it doesn't highlight the dumbness of this war, what does?
 
I understand you now,

Let us test your understanding.
Your actually very pro-American
True.

but in a way that's particularly nasty if not imperialist.
Hmmm. Explain please.

You don't see that setting an example as being a tyrant has it's counter effects.
What are your examples of the US acting as "a tyrant"?
You probably also don't realise that most of the US is an undesirable crime ridden sh#thole.
True. I have lived all over the world and in many of the states. Everywhere I have been has been okay. And Huntsville, is the best place I have been.

First of all the UK Govt will never LIE for you like that again. You used them for the UN vote, they will never risk such worldwide unpopularity again for nothing in return unless there totally stupid.
Why do you have such a low opinion of the UK? Are you claiming that hindsight is better that foresight? Then we agree. If you are claiming that the UK lied for the US then we disagree.

In your thinking Deception is really another word for being treacherous.
All of warfare is based on deception.
My personal preference is to deceive the enemy into failure instead of killing him. We use deception to cause an enemy to put his forces in places where we do not intend to act so we can decisively defeat him where we do attack. Successful deceptions usually save many lives.

You may love the short term benefits but every thief has it's day.
This is the thought of an amateur.

Your analysis of long term goals I feel lacks.
In what way? Is it because you disagree? That does not mean my analysis is the problem. It just means you disagree.
Toppling Hussein was the good thing
Can we get an "Amen" Brothers and Sisters?
the rest of the conflict was simply not worth it.
It is too soon to tell. Long term is just that, long term. It is not a year. It is not five years. Let us wait for twenty and then let's get back together and review the results.

The same with Bin Laden, you should have left after the Northern Alliance had smacked the hell out of the Taliban. But no, let's stay 10 years to see ourselves decline. You do not understand the Afghani mentality in the slightest.
What benefit would that have had?

As my link earlier, the Iraq insurgency are killing still goes on just as it did. And so will the Taliban with or without you.
Don't be shy. Make a point. Successful insurgencies often win in about five years. Failed insurgencies can take ten to fifteen years. Iraq is positioned to continue to do better and better year after year despite the homicide bombers.

You seem to think 'forever' is the answer despite Iraq and Vietnam.
True. If we want to defeat the insurgents and the terrorists. What lesson have you learned from Iraq? I am interested in what you think the lessons are from Viet-nam.
You also don't get the idea that these terrorists are mainly based in Pakistan. You're not fighting a country anymore, your fighting a dispersed idea, a safe haven is in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere. Unless your going to throw down 4-5 front-lines which you can't afford in any case your proposition is futile.
This is nonsense. We can prevent Afghanistan from being used by terrorists. And at the same time we can attack terrorists everywhere else they pop up. Coincidentally we continue to kill terrorists in many countries.

You need to move with the action, not put down a forever marker.
A fool or an amateur announces to friend and enemy alike a departure date. Announced departure dates dispirit our friends and allies. It also increases the martial ardor of our enemies.

And FYI the Russians weren't ******s it was and has always been a futile war.
Do you believe that we and the Soviet Union have the same goal? I observed the Soviet war against the people of Afghanistan as an active duty intelligence officer. They had the wrong goals, the wrong strategy, and even the wrong tactics.

You have become the Redcoats marching out from Boston and your too stubborn to see it.
LOL. Okay. I shall need more information before I can respond to this odd statement.
 
You're the one that made the claim. Do you need to sit down or something? You can't even keep your own fabrications straight, you one term Marxist.
So you are not the one who claimed near perfect knowledge of our rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan? LOL. Uh-huh.

There you go again.
 
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