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Thread: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Why should the U.S. lower/middle class subsidize the military industrial complex, national security state when the profits go primarily to multinationals and their stockholders, the 1%?

    The military industrial complex controls your CNN/FOX/NBC/CBS/ABC and the NYT, LATimes, Wash. Post., and the news wire services AP/Reuters found on Drudge and Huffington.

    That is not freedom.
    "Stockholders" being glossed over, natch.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Oh it's ugly? Evil? I'm more Hobbesian about it.

    Also, for total disclosure's sake- in case you want to say something and in retrospect put your foot in your mouth- I'm an 8 year Army veteran with two Iraq deployments and a rough one in Mindanao. Now I'm a DoD contractor and it pays well and I went on a third trip to Iraq last summer. You don't like the wars. Some people do. Trying to make a moralistic stand? Good luck. If you want to take a rational approach, understand that the US' high standard of living throughout the second half of the 20th century is due to war. Understand that your comfort was won via war.
    I'm also a veteran, Vietnam volunteer, and a lot smarter than when I was a youthful "blind patriot." I will attach a quote from one of my threads that addresses exactly the points you are making and their downside.

    "The US is the World's Biggest War-Monger | This Can't Be Happening

    “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.”(Dwight D. Eisenhower)"

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    I'm not a blind patriot. I'm not even a patriot. I just happen to understand international relations and how nations work in their best interests insofar as their capabilities will allow them to. The US' military might allows them to influence situations using it as a tool- something most nations can't do.

    For example, cheap oil was the foundation of the US in the second half of the 20th century, and that foundation was established via influencing governments- often via war.

    I don't know why you think someone would have to be a patriot- let alone a blind one- to see that.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I'm not a blind patriot. I'm not even a patriot. I just happen to understand international relations and how nations work in their best interests insofar as their capabilities will allow them to. The US' military might allows them to influence situations using it as a tool- something most nations can't do.

    For example, cheap oil was the foundation of the US in the second half of the 20th century, and that foundation was established via influencing governments- often via war.

    I don't know why you think someone would have to be a patriot- let alone a blind one- to see that.
    This is amusing because you and I see the world, OIL, and wars the same. Where we differ is that you think that wars have benifitted us greatly, and I think they are ugly and evil. We will be paying the cost for all that OIL we have been able to use freely because of our militant efforts to control it worldwide. The downside besides chaos, destruction, mayhem, and death will be catastrophic Global Warming. Eisenhower's quote from my last reply presented the alternatives to war if the same monies went into local infrastructures and that remains unchanged. We live with a myopic short term view of a long term reality and that shall bite us. Not prophecy, just recognition of reality.

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Well, sure, if everyone was nice there would be no war. As long as one person isn't, though, everyone needs to be prepared for violence. And that's the seed for everything you see. It's the nature of living things to compete for resources. Lions do it. Deer do it. Trees do it. Bacteria does it. Humans are no different. It's only a matter of finding that perfect balance of resources expended for resources garnered. Of course, no one can accurately make that calculation, so you have to guess.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    I said, "If it wasn't socialism and he wasn't socialist then why would his (non) socialist policies cause an anti-socialist backlash?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    If you are presented with two polar opposite solutions, you might find people who go to the most acceptable course (which for many poorer people, immigrants, racial minorities, etc. was the Socialist inclination). By offering a third path, it ensured that the socialist claims of inevitable collapse/immorality of the capitalist system was not held to be true by most people. They liked what they got out of the liberal policies without having to step dramatically further into socialism. In essence, FDR modified the United States, which ensured that socialism's challenges would mostly fail.

    It's pretty simple.
    I see. Let me restate to make sure we share a common understanding. You believe the US was faced with two polar opposite choices, freedom to choose for ourselves, usually called free-market capitalism, or slavery under a socialist regime. But the all-wise, all powerful, Wizard of Roosevelt clevery discerned a third path, socialism-as-far-as-he could-push-it, under the name of liberalism. As a result of his cleverness the American people rejected socialism, which according to you, is something different than socialism-as-far-as-he could-push-it, under the name of liberalism. Is that correct?

    By pushing socialism-as-far-as-he could-push-it, under the name of liberalism, he saved us from socialism?

    Awesome.
    Last edited by Misterveritis; 09-30-12 at 12:16 PM.

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    I wrote,"And every mighty oak began as a small acorn.

    FDR did what he could to advance democratic socialism. He prolonged the Depression with his policies. And yet the dumb masses kept voting him back into office. It seems that the one term Marxist is hoping to replicate FDR's achievement. Of course he did need to significantly increase the welfare rolls, increase misery by bankrupting coal companies, therefore increasing the cost of energy, and then give his supporters stuff. Obamaphone anybody?

    To which, for reasons known only to you, you replied,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Why should the U.S. lower/middle class subsidize the military industrial complex, national security state when the profits go primarily to multinationals and their stockholders, the 1%?

    The military industrial complex controls your CNN/FOX/NBC/CBS/ABC and the NYT, LATimes, Wash. Post., and the news wire services AP/Reuters found on Drudge and Huffington.

    That is not freedom.
    This is why I choose not to respond to you. Your response had nothing to do with what I said. Nothing.

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I've said it once on here, and I'll say it again. This war is unwinnable, and we are wasting our time and resources.
    If the war against the Taliban and Al quada is unwinnable in Afghanistan what do you recommend? Shall we declare it a safe haven for terrorists?

    What are the war's objectives? Why are we there? Why did the one term Marxist delcare a departure timetable? Is it unwinnable with today's "leadership" in the White House and in the field? Or is it unwinnable no matter what the political objectives are and no matter who is "in charge".

    Was WWII unwinnable? Until near the end, in 1944, it seemed like it.

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Only to those who wish to be simple-minded about it.
    That is my approach. I see the thing for what it is. You described how Roosevelt changed the relationship between the citizen and the government. He keep the nation impoverished and gave his ever growing constituent groups "stuff". He sowed a very large number of socialist seeds.
    It is quite constrained in output and in intentions in comparison with the Democratic Socialists.
    LOL. You are like many others who cannot connect the dots until after you are enslaved. He pushed socialism-as-far-as-he-could-push-it. And you rightly said in an earlier post that there was a backlash against socialism. You stumbled across a profound truth. But like many others who do you picked yourself up, brushed the truth off your clothing, then continued on with your life as if nothing happened.

    FDR's actions nullified the impact of the socialists and democratic socialists for decades. The movement was astoundingly crushed.
    Which only makes sense if your earlier statement that there was a backlash is correct. But the seeds Roosevelt planted are the weeds that must be pulled or burned.

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    So how do you know he chose to be a Marxist instead of a socialist or progressive?
    Didn't I just answer this? One can never know. But one can discern the evidence. Do you prefer I use the shortcut phrase "one term Marxist" or would you rather see "one term Marxist, Communist, socialist, Progressive, radical, terrorist"? I agree the latter is more precise. The former is simpler and captures the essential problem that is Barrack Hussein Obama.

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