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Thread: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    Rules of engagement started under Bush, and General Petraeus revised the rules under Obama, not much, but he certainly loosened them from what they were before. Petraeus revises rules | POLITICO 44
    We have had rules of engagement for a very long time. I remember reading about engagement rules during the Italy campaign in WWII.

    Politico did not make the case. I read what you referenced. We won't use air strikes against abandoned buildings. Okay. How does that enable infantry troops on a patrol to effectively fire upon insurgents?

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That isn't a proposal, that is just a talking point. What can Afghanistan export to generate income for its people other than opium? Free Market capitalism doesn't mean **** when their is nothing for the economy to base itself on.
    Minerals. Afghanistan has at least a trillion dollars worth of minerals. Or maybe more...
    Afghanistan has huge untapped mineral reserves including gems, copper, iron, ore, gold, lithium and other rare elements. The untapped minerals of Afghanistan worth at least 3 trillion dollars, three times more than what the US estimated in recent months, the Ministry of Mines announced on Thursday June 17, 2010.
    3 Trillion Dollars Worth Of Rare Earth Minerals What Country Am I Talking About ? - Find Answers to this Question

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Minerals. Afghanistan has at least a trillion dollars worth of minerals. Or maybe more...
    Afghanistan has huge untapped mineral reserves including gems, copper, iron, ore, gold, lithium and other rare elements. The untapped minerals of Afghanistan worth at least 3 trillion dollars, three times more than what the US estimated in recent months, the Ministry of Mines announced on Thursday June 17, 2010.
    3 Trillion Dollars Worth Of Rare Earth Minerals What Country Am I Talking About ? - Find Answers to this Question
    That will take at least another decade to get going. The deposits the Soviets found decades ago is a pipe dream for short to medium term economic independence. And the American public does not have the stomach for another decade of occupation.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    So you are not the one who claimed near perfect knowledge of our rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan? LOL. Uh-huh.

    There you go again.
    Your posts are very bad. Remember how this debate started? You claimed to know something had changed when Obama took office. Later, you admitted you don't really know. Just...sad.
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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Obama wants a repeat of Vietnam.
    Can't happen. The media is in the tank for Obama.

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Minerals. Afghanistan has at least a trillion dollars worth of minerals. Or maybe more...
    Afghanistan has huge untapped mineral reserves including gems, copper, iron, ore, gold, lithium and other rare elements. The untapped minerals of Afghanistan worth at least 3 trillion dollars, three times more than what the US estimated in recent months, the Ministry of Mines announced on Thursday June 17, 2010.
    3 Trillion Dollars Worth Of Rare Earth Minerals What Country Am I Talking About ? - Find Answers to this Question

    So minerals are the new reason to be there?

    *It is no longer a war of retribution for 9/11, no longer a war of democratic nation building, no longer a message to militant Islam?

    Osama Bin Laden has said many times that his strategy was to bankrupt America, by forcing us into protracted fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan.*

    We overthrew the Taliban government in 2001 with less than 10,000 American troops. Why does it now seem that the more troops we send, the worse things get? If the Soviets bankrupted themselves in Afghanistan with troop levels of 100,000 and were eventually forced to leave in humiliating defeat, why are we determined to follow their example? Most importantly, what is there to be gained from all this? We’ve invested billions of dollars and thousands of precious lives – for what?

    "Rationales for maintaining the counterinsurgency in Afghanistan are varied and complex, but they all center on one key tenet: that Afghanistan must not be allowed to again become a haven for terrorist groups, especially al-Qaeda. Debate about Afghanistan has raised reasons to question that tenet, one of which is that the top al-Qaeda leadership is not even in Afghanistan, having decamped to Pakistan years ago. Another is that terrorists intent on establishing a haven can choose among several unstable countries besides Afghanistan, and U.S. forces cannot secure them all."

    Paul R Pillar*

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Joechilli View Post

    Osama Bin Laden has said many times that his strategy was to bankrupt America, by forcing us into protracted fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan.*
    Seems Bin Laden may be winning, even if posthumously:

    The Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera released a full transcript Monday of the most recent videotape from Osama bin Laden in which the head of al Qaeda said his group's goal is to force America into bankruptcy.

    Al-Jazeera aired portions of the videotape Friday but released the full transcript of the entire tape on its Web site Monday.

    "We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah," bin Laden said in the transcript.
    Or, maybe it is more accurate to say that we're letting Allah win.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Seems Bin Laden may be winning, even if posthumously:



    Or, maybe it is more accurate to say that we're letting Allah win.
    Brilliant article,

    Maybe we better parachute in some West Virgina miners

    Although 'Kick his ass get the gas' has a better ring to it than 'kick his ass get the minerals'
    I hope the staying isn't based on the arrogance of politicians. If safe havens were such a big deal why isn't there a Bagram base in Pakistan?

    "Targeted killings of government officials and politicians have tripled. Three elections are to come as the Taliban press home their advantage – provincial councils in 2013, the presidency in 2014 and parliament in 2015, so the opportunity for mayhem is unbounded.
    With the proposed rate of 20 base closures a month, the job of holding the country together will come down to an Afghan national army, only 7% of which is currently considered capable of independent action, even with foreign advisers. The International Crisis Group in a report on Monday paints a bleak picture of Afghanistan's readiness to prepare for elections and a transfer of power after Hamid Karzai's mandate ends. It quotes one veteran Afghan security official as saying there is no national army or police force, only a factionalised one which could instantly fissure. The international community, it warns, has one last chance to leave a viable state in Afghanistan, by helping Afghans prepare for an election and a smooth transfer of presidential power. About 18 months remain to prevent a repeat of the chaos and fraud of previous elections. Failure to do so in a corrupt and factionalised state would lead to civil war on the heels of Nato's withdrawal, especially if President Karzai tries to stay in power by declaring a state of emergency. Under these conditions the army would not maintain its nominal unity.
    An exit like this would leave the US with just two points of historical comparison: the fall of Saigon in 1975, and Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989. Of the two, the Soviet parallel is looking closer each day."

    m.guardian.co.uk

    Can anyone even put over a military strategy for winning?
    I'd like to hear one?

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Joechilli View Post
    Brilliant article,

    Maybe we better parachute in some West Virgina miners

    Although 'Kick his ass get the gas' has a better ring to it than 'kick his ass get the minerals'
    I hope the staying isn't based on the arrogance of politicians. If safe havens were such a big deal why isn't there a Bagram base in Pakistan?

    "Targeted killings of government officials and politicians have tripled. Three elections are to come as the Taliban press home their advantage – provincial councils in 2013, the presidency in 2014 and parliament in 2015, so the opportunity for mayhem is unbounded.
    With the proposed rate of 20 base closures a month, the job of holding the country together will come down to an Afghan national army, only 7% of which is currently considered capable of independent action, even with foreign advisers. The International Crisis Group in a report on Monday paints a bleak picture of Afghanistan's readiness to prepare for elections and a transfer of power after Hamid Karzai's mandate ends. It quotes one veteran Afghan security official as saying there is no national army or police force, only a factionalised one which could instantly fissure. The international community, it warns, has one last chance to leave a viable state in Afghanistan, by helping Afghans prepare for an election and a smooth transfer of presidential power. About 18 months remain to prevent a repeat of the chaos and fraud of previous elections. Failure to do so in a corrupt and factionalised state would lead to civil war on the heels of Nato's withdrawal, especially if President Karzai tries to stay in power by declaring a state of emergency. Under these conditions the army would not maintain its nominal unity.
    An exit like this would leave the US with just two points of historical comparison: the fall of Saigon in 1975, and Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989. Of the two, the Soviet parallel is looking closer each day."

    m.guardian.co.uk

    Can anyone even put over a military strategy for winning?
    I'd like to hear one?
    So, we'll probably leave eventually, and the country will regress to chaos and be taken over by the Taliban or some similar group. Afterwards, self described "conservatives" will rant about how the "liberals" snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory, how we would have won had we just "stayed the course", and how we really won the war, just like they like to rant about the fall of Saigon.

    And, down the road, we'll invade yet another country to fight terrorism, or perhaps Communism, or some other ism and make the world safe for democracy.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: America’s Dumbest War, Ever

    Yes, I'm sure that was his goal.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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