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Thread: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

  1. #41
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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    What alternative do you propose?
    The CPS average should be going up in relation to city, state and national averages, in order for them to get any raise.
    Right now, CPS schools are below average in all those categories.

    Why should they get raises, when they're one of the highest paid nationally and below average on performance measures?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why should they get raises, when they're one of the highest paid nationally and below average on performance measures?
    What research do you have that shows teachers are "below average on performance measures?"

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    I am so genuinely happy that you actually provided some sources. Nobody ever does that anymore.

    That said, what you've provided is evidence of a below average system. Teachers are a single part of that system. So, how have you isolated teacher performance and demonstrated that teachers, not other aspects of the system, are performing below average and therefore responsible for the system's performance?

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I am so genuinely happy that you actually provided some sources. Nobody ever does that anymore.

    That said, what you've provided is evidence of a below average system. Teachers are a single part of that system. So, how have you isolated teacher performance and demonstrated that teachers, not other aspects of the system, are performing below average and therefore responsible for the system's performance?
    Of course, but teachers are paid to teach, if students aren't learning, to at least make the national average, then they are part of the problem.
    Giving them annual increases, when their pay is already far above national average, does not make sense.

    Teachers are the primary method in which students learn in school, not the admins, not the school board, not the school building.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course, but teachers are paid to teach, if students aren't learning, to at least make the national average, then they are part of the problem.
    Giving them annual increases, when their pay is already far above national average, does not make sense.

    Teachers are the primary method in which students learn in school, not the admins, not the school board, not the school building.
    You're deflecting. How have you isolated teacher performance and demonstrated that teachers, not other aspects of the system, are performing below average and therefore responsible for the system's performance?

    You've determined that the numbers you provided accurately measure teacher performance. I asking you to provide evidence for that claim.

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    You're deflecting. How have you isolated teacher performance and demonstrated that teachers, not other aspects of the system, are performing below average and therefore responsible for the system's performance?

    You've determined that the numbers you provided accurately measure teacher performance. I asking you to provide evidence for that claim.
    Not deflecting anything.
    Teachers are the primary learning mechanism in schools, when school performance is below average, there is an undeniable connection.

    You're trying to sprinkle in uncertainty in this, to cloud the results of performance.
    If teachers are not primarily responsible for learning, then why do we pay them as much as we do?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not deflecting anything.
    Teachers are the primary learning mechanism in schools, when school performance is below average, there is an undeniable connection.

    You're trying to sprinkle in uncertainty in this, to cloud the results of performance.
    If teachers are not primarily responsible for learning, then why do we pay them as much as we do?
    No, you made a claim that the numbers you provided were evidence that teachers are performing low. However, those numbers were the result of an entire system. Since teachers are single part of that system, their performance must be isolated in order to determine whether or not it is below average. Do you have research that has done that or do you believe that your hypothesis should be accepted without evidence?

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    No, you made a claim that the numbers you provided were evidence that teachers are performing low. However, those numbers were the result of an entire system. Since teachers are single part of that system, their performance must be isolated in order to determine whether or not it is below average. Do you have research that has done that or do you believe that your hypothesis should be accepted without evidence?
    Teachers are a critical part of that system, a single and critical part of it.
    Just like a heart is just one part of the body, if it fails, so does the rest of the body.

    CPS teachers have less instruction time per year, yet are above national average in pay.
    The performance of these schools is below average, for which students spend the majority of their time with, teachers.

    Well trained and qualified teachers are a critical component of any school system.
    Evaluating Teacher Effectiveness | Center for American Progress

    If these teachers are not responsible for the results, then why are we paying them so much.
    Clearly their effect is minimal and their pay should be reduced to reflect that.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Teachers are a critical part of that system, a single and critical part of it.
    Just like a heart is just one part of the body, if it fails, so does the rest of the body.

    CPS teachers have less instruction time per year, yet are above national average in pay.
    The performance of these schools is below average, for which students spend the majority of their time with, teachers.

    Well trained and qualified teachers are a critical component of any school system.
    Evaluating Teacher Effectiveness | Center for American Progress

    If these teachers are not responsible for the results, then why are we paying them so much.
    Clearly their effect is minimal and their pay should be reduced to reflect that.
    I agree that teachers, specifically well trained and qualified teachers, are a critical part of a system. However, none of that demonstrates that Chicago teachers have below average performance. Since you haven't shown that Chicago teachers have below average performance and, instead, have only shown that the Chicago system is below average (understatement, really), I think it's reasonable for me to conclude that you don't have evidence and are instead assuming that your hypothesis is correct.

    Look, I understand your perception. Teachers spend the most direct time with students in any education system. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that they are primarily responsible for the low performance of an education system. However, car salesmen spend the most direct time with buyers, realtors spend the most direct time with buyers, policemen spend the most direct time with citizens and so on. The auto industry failed, the housing industry crashed, crime in many places (including Chicago) is out of control and so on. In each of those cases, it is illogical to blame the entirety of the system's failure on the people with the most direct contact with the "consumer."

    I'm sure your argument is self-evident to you, but that's because you have a certain perception of the system that I don't. You think "Chicago teachers spend a lot of time with students" so of course their performance is below average in such a low performing system. I think, "The Illinois and Chicago governments have implemented policies that significantly decrease teaching time, micromanage lessons plans and replace teaching time with 20-30 standardized tests a year (in addition to preparation for those tests in some places)." I think, "Many schools in low income neighborhoods don't even have science lab, computer classes, language, music, art and sufficient time in math, reading, etc." In a way, it's funny to me that teachers would be blamed when the system has decreased their teaching time.

    The fact is that you're holding teachers responsible for something that you have failed to demonstrate they are responsible for. I'm going to leave this forum and be slightly annoyed with that and your expectation that I should just accept what you say without evidence, but I think that that kind of thinking is more problematic for you because you're the one basing condemnation on something for which you have no evidence.

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