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Thread: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

  1. #21
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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    -A 3% pay increase the first year, with a 2% increase every year thereafter
    Not the worst concession, but automatic pay increases don't really sit well with me on principle.


    -Phasing out performance-related pay, or “merit pay”
    Completely disagree with this. Why the hell shouldn't your pay be based on your performance. If you have two teachers, one of whom comes in early, tutors their students, and works avidly to help them learn and one of whom who puts in no extra time and offers no extra help, the first should earn more than the second, regardless of tenure.


    -Hiring 600 teachers in the areas of art, music, world languages, etc.
    No problem with this. Studies indicate that emphasis on these areas can promote better performance in students.


    -Up to $250 reimbursement of school supplies
    I'm surprised this wasn't already happening. Most districts here already offer $300 for every educator who isn't considered "auxiliary".


    -Only 30% of student test scores will be factored into teacher evaluations
    What?! Who determines which 30%? Why do the other 70% not count? This is asinine and blatantly counterproductive.


    -Laid-off teachers receive hiring-priority for charter school position openings
    In theory this sounds reasonable, but if teachers are laid off based on performance/results, why should under performing teachers be given priority.


    Lastly, it doesn't really seem to me like much of that list has anything at all to do with making education better for the students. The additional arts teachers, sure. Maybe the supplies...but the rest of it seems like a means of sweeping struggling children under the rug and blatantly ignoring lackluster educators that negatively impact student success.
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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    And the students get, oh, never mind. How foolish of me. They get the same as they've been getting.
    This is a dumb comment for three reasons:

    1. The students get more art/music/language teachers according to the deal.
    2. Workers/teachers have concerns that are independent of consumers/students.
    3. Teachers can't bargain on behalf of students. They can only bargain only legally behalf of themselves.

    In other words, this constant attempt by people to scoff at teachers for fighting for themselves is ridiculous and it's funny because most of the people who do the scoffing aren't doing anything themselves to help students and are so ignorant that they don't even realize that the plan they're criticizing actually HELPS students - so they should really just shut the **** up.

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    What?! Who determines which 30%? Why do the other 70% not count? This is asinine and blatantly counterproductive.
    The article phrased that poorly. It's not that 30% of test scores will be counted; it's that test scores will be 30% of the evaluation.

    In theory this sounds reasonable, but if teachers are laid off based on performance/results, why should under performing teachers be given priority.
    That stipulation is primarily based off the huge economic and school "turnaround" layoffs that have happened in the city that didn't have anything to do with performance. Chicago closed down and "turned around" a lot of schools and then hired a bunch of new teachers instead of any of the ones that were laid off so the union wanted to ensure that veterans were the first choice. This, in my opinion, is actually a good thing because Chicago has implemented a lot of horrible policies that younger teachers are more likely to go along with. Older teachers who were teaching when the "achievement gap" was smaller than ever are less likely to go along with that nonsense.

    Lastly, it doesn't really seem to me like much of that list has anything at all to do with making education better for the students. The additional arts teachers, sure. Maybe the supplies...but the rest of it seems like a means of sweeping struggling children under the rug and blatantly ignoring lackluster educators that negatively impact student success.
    Teachers are only legally allowed to bargain on behalf of themselves. They can't bargain on behalf of the students, so why would you expect student centered things to be on that list? It's not legal. It's like saying, "I went to the butcher and I didn't see any lettuce." Of course you didn't.

    And this notion about "ignoring lackluster educators" is a myth. I suspect you think that rejecting merit pay is evidence of that, but the fact is that many schools have been incredibly successful without merit pay so that's obviously not the problem. There also isn't conclusive evidence that merit pay has any positive effect at all. I, quite frankly, think that you and the other harsh critics should familiarize themselves more with what Chicago teachers and their union actually think instead of just decided that they're "sweeping struggling children under the rug." That's an uninformed position.

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The article phrased that poorly. It's not that 30% of test scores will be counted; it's that test scores will be 30% of the evaluation.


    That stipulation is primarily based off the huge economic and school "turnaround" layoffs that have happened in the city that didn't have anything to do with performance. Chicago closed down and "turned around" a lot of schools and then hired a bunch of new teachers instead of any of the ones that were laid off so the union wanted to ensure that veterans were the first choice. This, in my opinion, is actually a good thing because Chicago has implemented a lot of horrible policies that younger teachers are more likely to go along with. Older teachers who were teaching when the "achievement gap" was smaller than ever are less likely to go along with that nonsense.


    Teachers are only legally allowed to bargain on behalf of themselves. They can't bargain on behalf of the students, so why would you expect student centered things to be on that list? It's not legal. It's like saying, "I went to the butcher and I didn't see any lettuce." Of course you didn't.

    And this notion about "ignoring lackluster educators" is a myth. I suspect you think that rejecting merit pay is evidence of that, but the fact is that many schools have been incredibly successful without merit pay so that's obviously not the problem. There also isn't conclusive evidence that merit pay has any positive effect at all. I, quite frankly, think that you and the other harsh critics should familiarize themselves more with what Chicago teachers and their union actually think instead of just decided that they're "sweeping struggling children under the rug." That's an uninformed position.
    I think it's hard to say that schools are "incredibly successful" when U.S. test scores continue to fall against those of most competitive countries.

    Further, the Chicago area school system returns some of the worst results in the country.

    Whatever the union "actually thinks", they aren't returning adequate results to justify being the highest paid educators in the country.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I think it's hard to say that schools are "incredibly successful" when U.S. test scores continue to fall against those of most competitive countries.

    Further, the Chicago area school system returns some of the worst results in the country.

    Whatever the union "actually thinks", they aren't returning adequate results to justify being the highest paid educators in the country.
    1. I didn't say all schools, I said "many schools" and it is a fact that many schools have been and are successful without merit pay. In fact, when you take out schools in poverty, our scores are much more competitive with other countries. This makes it pretty obvious that merit pay isn't the issue. Merit pay and "bad teachers" are a distraction from the actual problems and it's a shame that people with good intentions focus on them.

    2. Why is that?

    3. What do you mean? I surely hope you aren't blaming teachers for the failure of an entire system. And if you aren't, then I would hope you have some research that isolates Chicago teacher performance and demonstrates its "inadequacy."

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    1. I didn't say all schools, I said "many schools" and it is a fact that many schools have been and are successful without merit pay. In fact, when you take out schools in poverty, our scores are much more competitive with other countries. This makes it pretty obvious that merit pay isn't the issue. Merit pay and "bad teachers" are a distraction from the actual problems and it's a shame that people with good intentions focus on them.

    2. Why is that?

    3. What do you mean? I surely hope you aren't blaming teachers for the failure of an entire system. And if you aren't, then I would hope you have some research that isolates Chicago teacher performance and demonstrates its "inadequacy."
    You and I have had this circle jerk before.

    The teachers are never the only problem, but they are rarely exempt from the problem in its entirety.

    When the district as a whole performs at the bottom of the U.S. rankings (out of several tens of thousands of districts) then everybody in that district is in some way accountable for those failings. Rewarding teachers who abandon students in the middle of the school year, systematically removing checks and balances that hold teachers accountable for the performance of their students, and systematically removing incentives for better educator performance will solve exactly zero of the problems that have led Chicago's schools to be such a dismal failure.

    So in that sense, I guess both the union and those who conceded are equally to blame for these failings.

    When the biggest concern of the union is destroy incentives and promoting baseless raises, it says a lot about what the teachers themselves concern themselves with. So who's advocating for the students here, really? Who's actually trying to advance their education and broaden their horizons? 'Cause near as I can tell, the students were an afterthought in these negotiations.

    The teachers wanted more for themselves (when they're already the highest paid in the country). The city wanted more for themselves. Who actually spoke for the students here?
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    You and I have had this circle jerk before.

    The teachers are never the only problem, but they are rarely exempt from the problem in its entirety.

    When the district as a whole performs at the bottom of the U.S. rankings (out of several tens of thousands of districts) then everybody in that district is in some way accountable for those failings. Rewarding teachers who abandon students in the middle of the school year, systematically removing checks and balances that hold teachers accountable for the performance of their students, and systematically removing incentives for better educator performance will solve exactly zero of the problems that have led Chicago's schools to be such a dismal failure.

    So in that sense, I guess both the union and those who conceded are equally to blame for these failings.

    When the biggest concern of the union is destroy incentives and promoting baseless raises, it says a lot about what the teachers themselves concern themselves with. So who's advocating for the students here, really? Who's actually trying to advance their education and broaden their horizons? 'Cause near as I can tell, the students were an afterthought in these negotiations.
    Okay. So which positive (in your opinion) policies does the Chicago Teacher's Union oppose, what are its alternate proposals and what research supports the former over the latter?

    The teachers wanted more for themselves (when they're already the highest paid in the country). The city wanted more for themselves. Who actually spoke for the students here?
    I already covered this. Unions can only legally negotiate for their members. Therefore, it is nonsensical to expect student centered policies in contract because it isn't legal to have them there. But there are places where teachers CAN speak for students other than in their schools and that's to the media (which many do), to legislators (which many do) and to board members at board meetings (which many do). You're basing all of your assumptions off of a contract that can't legally include student centered policies. That's illogical.

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    This is a dumb comment for three reasons:

    1. The students get more art/music/language teachers according to the deal.
    2. Workers/teachers have concerns that are independent of consumers/students.
    3. Teachers can't bargain on behalf of students. They can only bargain only legally behalf of themselves.

    In other words, this constant attempt by people to scoff at teachers for fighting for themselves is ridiculous and it's funny because most of the people who do the scoffing aren't doing anything themselves to help students and are so ignorant that they don't even realize that the plan they're criticizing actually HELPS students - so they should really just shut the **** up.
    No, you are a selfish, self-centered person who doesn't believe in doing anything for anyone else. But, you are right. The teachers are not concerned with the students or the taxpayers. Teachers certainly could bargain on behalf of the students but they have absolutely no interest. For union supporters the only problem with the schools is the damned students. Without them it could be a lovely job. I think having more teachers for music, art, and language would be lovely if students were already learning to read, write, and do basic math. The major benefit of these teachers will be to increase the income of the unions.

    I am generalizing with the teachers who need the union. Some teachers are sincere, dedicated professionals who do care about students but are simply afraid to stand up to the union and their thugs.
    Last edited by Patrickt; 09-26-12 at 03:25 PM.

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    those poor students now get taught by art and music and PE teachers, which would not have been the circumstance except for the teachers' union insistence. how damaging to those children

    and they were further hurt by having smaller numbers in their class rooms

    and those taxpayers. why the hell are they electing officials who would compromise on things like pay for teachers' additional time on the clock
    And students who can sing and draw pictures but can't read, write, or do basic math benefit how exactly. As for the smaller classes, I'll believe it when I see it. And, why are you defending people who are extortionists and hold the children and their education hostage?

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    Re: Success! Here’s What the Chicago Teachers Get

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Exactly correct. It's funny because here in Chicago, Rahm has ads running where he tries to save face by essentially claiming he got what he wanted out of the strike, when he didn't. Bad for Rahm and his ego, good for everyone else.
    Right, and what this shows beyond a doubt, is that unions don't play favorites like those on the right keep blathering.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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