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Thread: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    We have two separate questions here: an ethical question, and a legal question.
    Yup, we do.

    Legally, we are discussing private schools who have the right to teach that the sky is purple if they want to.
    ...Even if they are funded by the state government?

    Parents don't have to send their children to that particular school. That is the beauty of the voucher system, that the money can be put toward whatever school the parents believe is best for their own children.

    I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt you have much of a legal case. If you did, I'm certain that there would already be lawsuits challenging the program.

    That leaves us with the ethical question - whether you are entitled to a say in something that is happening not in your community, and that you are not helping to fund.
    Like I said, they are funded by the state government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You have every right to your opinion. You don't have the right to IMPOSE your opinion on other people. And yes, that applies to me as much as it applies to you.
    How am I imposing my opinion? I posted on an internet forum that I think there may a constitutional issue, and I think it's damaging to teach this curriculum to kids. What exactly about that is imposing?

    Would you feel the same way if a school that was funded by the state was teaching children that Allah is the one true god and everything opposing him is the work of Satan, and that the Taliban was just representing cultural pride?

    If you would have just said "I don't think those 14 points are appropriate subject matter for schoolchildren" I wouldn't have any problem with that. I take issue when you (or anyone not involved in that particular community) talks about what action needs to be taken, because it's not your place, or uses a thread like this as a springboard to bash all things Christian.
    All things Christian? I think you'll find a good deal of Christians who think this is utterly insane. It is only the farthest reaches of the fringe who wouldn't.

    You do know that most Christians don't believe in dragons, and that literalism is a relatively new phenomena restricted to a handful of sects, right?

    I am perfectly well within my "place" to criticize whatever I want.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 10-08-12 at 07:26 AM.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yup, we do.



    ...Even if they are funded by the state government?



    Like I said, they are funded by the state government.
    If you had a legal case, where are the lawsuits? Why hasn't the program been shut down? The proof is in the pudding.


    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    How am I imposing my opinion? I posted on an internet forum that I think there may a constitutional issue, and I think it's damaging to teach this curriculum to kids. What exactly about that is imposing?
    Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. Like I said, if you are expressing an opinion about what you think should be taught in classrooms, that's fine. If you think the federal government ought to come in and shut the schools or the voucher program down, your opinion is overstepping. You don't live in Louisiana, and you don't pay taxes in to the program.

    My original post, to which you responded, wasn't targeted to you specifically. I didn't seek you out.

    It was targeted to everyone who posted on this thread. Everyone needs to mind their own business if they don't live in Louisiana, and leave this up to the locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Would you feel the same way if a school that was funded by the state was teaching children that Allah is the one true god and everything opposing him is the work of Satan, and that the Taliban was just representing cultural pride?
    If they're not teaching kids to break the law, I don't have a problem with it. I wouldn't send my kids there, but that's all the say I have in the matter.

    America is full of Islamic communities, Hindu communities, Jewish, etc. My own city of Chicago is as diverse as it gets. Absolutely I think every community should have somewhere to send their kids that matches their core values, if they choose. We can't all be the same.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    If you had a legal case, where are the lawsuits? Why hasn't the program been shut down? The proof is in the pudding.
    Right here:

    A court date is now set for October 15 in District Court in the battle over Louisiana's new voucher program.

    Teacher unions are arguing that it is unconstitutional because public money helps fund private schools.
    Court date set for education voucher program, constitutionality in question | WVLA NBC33 | Baton Rouge News, Weather and Sports

    Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. Like I said, if you are expressing an opinion about what you think should be taught in classrooms, that's fine. If you think the federal government ought to come in and shut the schools or the voucher program down, your opinion is overstepping. You don't live in Louisiana, and you don't pay taxes in to the program.

    My original post, to which you responded, wasn't targeted to you specifically. I didn't seek you out.

    It was targeted to everyone who posted on this thread. Everyone needs to mind their own business if they don't live in Louisiana, and leave this up to the locals.
    Maybe I am, maybe I'm not? What am I doing besides posting on an internet forum? How am I imposing my views?

    My opinion cannot possibly be "overstepping." It's my opinion. Do you know what free speech is?

    Someone posted a thread about this topic. It is open to people who live anywhere in the world.

    If they're not teaching kids to break the law, I don't have a problem with it. I wouldn't send my kids there, but that's all the say I have in the matter.

    America is full of Islamic communities, Hindu communities, Jewish, etc. My own city of Chicago is as diverse as it gets. Absolutely I think every community should have somewhere to send their kids that matches their core values, if they choose. We can't all be the same.
    I have a problem with unconstitutional use of government money.

    They can teach this crap all day long. Just not on the public's dime.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Right here:



    Court date set for education voucher program, constitutionality in question | WVLA NBC33 | Baton Rouge News, Weather and Sports



    Maybe I am, maybe I'm not? What am I doing besides posting on an internet forum? How am I imposing my views?

    My opinion cannot possibly be "overstepping." It's my opinion. Do you know what free speech is?

    Someone posted a thread about this topic. It is open to people who live anywhere in the world.



    I have a problem with unconstitutional use of government money.

    They can teach this crap all day long. Just not on the public's dime.
    Hey we'll have to see how those lawsuits go. There's no debate to be had on the legal side then, they'll either win or they won't.

    As for your other point, "the public" in this case doesn't include you. It's NOT your dime. You, personally, have contributed zero dollars and zero cents to that program. Thus, you thinking you are entitled to a say in what they do is just wrong.

    But hey, that's freedom of speech....since you asked. You have a right to come on this forum and be as wrong as you want. Just like I have the right to point it out.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Hey we'll have to see how those lawsuits go. There's no debate to be had on the legal side then, they'll either win or they won't.

    As for your other point, "the public" in this case doesn't include you. It's NOT your dime. You, personally, have contributed zero dollars and zero cents to that program. Thus, you thinking you are entitled to a say in what they do is just wrong.

    But hey, that's freedom of speech....since you asked. You have a right to come on this forum and be as wrong as you want. Just like I have the right to point it out.
    Actually, yes, it is my dime.

    State education receive a minority of their funding from the federal government since the 60's.

    Therefore, the federal government, through the legislative process, provides assistance to the states and schools in an effort to supplement, not supplant, state support.
    Archived: 10 Fact About K-12 Education Funding

    In addition to that, I pay disproportionately for it, personally.

    I live in Minnesota, which is one of the best-run states in the US. Because of that, we only get 75 cents for every dollar of federal taxes we pay. That other quarter is going to poorer, dysfunctional states like Louisiana. So federally speaking, I pay more for it than they do.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    How do you know that state education funds are the same as the voucher funds? It might be two totally separate pots of money.

    Assuming you are right, though, then surely you understand why conservatives are against federally funded stem cell research, abortions, and birth control. If our tax dollars touch the issue, we have a say, right?

    You just accepted that premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Actually, yes, it is my dime.

    State education receive a minority of their funding from the federal government since the 60's.



    Archived: 10 Fact About K-12 Education Funding

    In addition to that, I pay disproportionately for it, personally.

    I live in Minnesota, which is one of the best-run states in the US. Because of that, we only get 75 cents for every dollar of federal taxes we pay. That other quarter is going to poorer, dysfunctional states like Louisiana. So federally speaking, I pay more for it than they do.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    How do you know that state education funds are the same as the voucher funds? It might be two totally separate pots of money.

    Assuming you are right, though, then surely you understand why conservatives are against federally funded stem cell research, abortions, and birth control. If our tax dollars touch the issue, we have a say, right?

    You just accepted that premise.
    As my link says, the money goes towards materials, training, low income student needs, special programs, all kinds of different things. Practically everything. I couldn't tell you the dollar amount, but I'd be shocked if it was nothing. The list is a long one. Why don't you look at the link?

    Even if it were nothing, it doesn't matter. It's still a constitutional breach even if it were only using state funding.

    I understand why they're against those things, yes. However, the Constitution states it will not respect an establishment of religion. It does not say it will refrain from offending religious opinions. That would be impossible. How would we decide whether to force people to kneel towards Mecca or pray with their hands joined? Can't do both. It would also be extremely authoritarian. Shall we mandate all women wear head coverings?

    So long as a law is not preventing an individual from their religious practice, it is free to offend religion as much as it likes.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Then you can't rightly complain when conservatives vote down things like stem cell research, partially funded abortion, funding for planned parenthood, on the grounds that conservative tax dollars are in play.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    As my link says, the money goes towards materials, training, low income student needs, special programs, all kinds of different things. Practically everything. I couldn't tell you the dollar amount, but I'd be shocked if it was nothing. The list is a long one. Why don't you look at the link?

    Even if it were nothing, it doesn't matter. It's still a constitutional breach even if it were only using state funding.

    I understand why they're against those things, yes. However, the Constitution states it will not respect an establishment of religion. It does not say it will refrain from offending religious opinions. That would be impossible. How would we decide whether to force people to kneel towards Mecca or pray with their hands joined? Can't do both. It would also be extremely authoritarian. Shall we mandate all women wear head coverings?

    So long as a law is not preventing an individual from their religious practice, it is free to offend religion as much as it likes.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Then you can't rightly complain when conservatives vote down things like stem cell research, partially funded abortion, funding for planned parenthood, on the grounds that conservative tax dollars are in play.
    Yes, I can, and I just explained why. The Constitution doesn't say it will not pass any law that may offend religious people. It says it will not make any law respecting an establishment of religion, or preventing the practice of religion.

    We have lots of laws that offend both religious and non-religious people, and lots of things we pay taxes towards that offend both religious and non-religious people. That is perfectly legal, as long as they can still practice (or not).

    What is not legal is using government money to fund religion.

    Did you read my post?

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes, I can, and I just explained why. The Constitution doesn't say it will not pass any law that may offend religious people. It says it will not make any law respecting an establishment of religion, or preventing the practice of religion.

    We have lots of laws that offend both religious and non-religious people, and lots of things we pay taxes towards that offend both religious and non-religious people. That is perfectly legal, as long as they can still practice (or not).

    What is not legal is using government money to fund religion.

    Did you read my post?

    Again, we have two issues.... a legal issue and a moral issue.

    Legally, we'll see what the courts have to say. I'm not a lawyer, and it doesn't sound like you are either. I am not about to pretend to be an expert in constitutional law or the specifics of this case, so I'll just leave it at 50/50 chance that the program is constitutional. We'll see.

    Now to the ethical question. You implicitly agreed with the premise that your tax dollars, ethically not legally, give you a say in the matter with the schools. Since you're helping fund it, you should get a say.

    If not, when I say "You, personally, have contributed zero dollars and zero cents to that program. Thus, you thinking you are entitled to a say in what they do is just wrong" you should have made the case that you are indeed entitled irrespective of your tax contribution.

    Instead, you tried to prove that you have indeed made a tax contribution to the voucher program, and in so doing, you accept that this is why you are entitled a say in how they run their schools in Louisiana. Otherwise why make the point?

    Given that, we need to use the same logic to federal spending on stem cell research and Planned Parenthood. Since conservatives pay federal taxes, they should get a say how those taxes are spent. So you really have no grounds to complain if and when conservatives vote these things down.

    You even went as far as to imply that the amount of taxes you pay should determine how much say you have in the issue.

    Given the income of Republicans.... nah we won't go there

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