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Thread: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

  1. #91
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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    those are indeed horrible things.... so i guess i now have to believe all were beaten,abused, or killed...right?
    Who said they were? The consensus is simple: Slaves were kept at bay by the threat of force. The majority didn't escape because of fear of what would come if they were to escape. That said, it's widely accepted that even if they weren't all systematically beaten, they were kept slaves by fear of the force that would be used if they tried to escape slavery.

    you can complain about my positions all day long... but you may not assign a position to me that i do not hold, then complain about it.
    honesty 101... learn it.

    sorry you take offense to me correcting your lies about me... but it will continue until you decide not to tell lies.... you clear on that?
    Hey, it was you who claimed MaggieD wasn't an apologist. She clearly is. It wasn't that bad because their masters were kind. Whatever that means. How can you be kind and forcefully keep somebody enslaved at the same time? Generous wife beater fallacy.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    yes, slavery was evil... and slaveowners were evil for owning slaves.... I think we can all agree on that.
    why must we lie about their treatment of their slaves though?... why is it necessary to be dishonest?
    This is an excellent question, and one you should probably be asking of yourself. The fact is, treatment of slaves in the antebellum south was brutal and degrading in a wide variety of ways. It was especially bad for female slaves, who were frequently subject to sexual violence, not to mention forced separation from their children. Lie to yourself all you want, but the fact remains, slaves were routinely subject to either actual beatings, or the threat thereof, extraordinarily long workdays, unsanitary living conditions and the diseases and high death rates that accompany same, and of course an almost total lack of legal rights. For example:

    "Yet we must never forget that these same welfare capitalist plantations in the Deep South were essentially ruled by terror. Even the most kindly and humane masters knew that only the threat of violence could force gangs of field hands to work from dawn to dusk, "with the discipline," as one contemporary observer put it, "of a regular trained army." Frequent public floggings reminded every slave of the penalty for inefficient labor, disorderly conduct, or refusal to accept the authority of a superior." - David Brion Davis (an historian at Yale and Cornell).

    And this:

    "Buried in tattered and filthy blankets ... here, in their hour of sickness, lay those whose health and strength are spent in unrequited labor for us ... to buy for us all the luxuries which health can revel in." - Frances Anne Kemble (a prominent abolishonist, married to a plantation owner) -http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4narr1.html

    And this:

    "On this plantation were more than 100 slaves who were mated indiscriminately and without any regard for family unions. If their master thought that a certain man and woman might have strong, healthy offspring, he forced them to have sexual relation, even though they were married to other slaves. If there seemed to be any slight reluctance on the part of either of the unfortunate ones, “Big Jim” would make them consummate this relationship in his presence. He used the same procedure if he thought a certain couple was not producing children fast enough. He enjoyed these orgies very much and often entertained his friends in this manner; quite often he and his guests would engage in these debaucheries, choosing for themselves the prettiest of the young women. Sometimes they forced the unhappy husbands and lovers of their victims to look on."
    -http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/enslavement/text6/masterslavesexualabuse.pdf

    and this:

    "Many authors of slave narratives agree that Christian slave owners were in fact the cruelest of all masters, including Jacobs, Douglas and Equiano. Douglas refers to these men as the “meanest and basest, the most cruel and cowardly, of all others”. This article enlightened me on many of the justifications that the slave owners believed in this time period. Extreme priests and slaveholders seek out Jesus-like sufferers to use in the crucifixion for their sins. For the Christian slave owner, this comes in the form of the enslaved African American whom they can beat to a pulp as a sign of devotion to the Lord."
    -http://www.nines.org/exhibits/Violence_in_Slavery

    Need I go on?

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who said they were? The consensus is simple: Slaves were kept at bay by the threat of force. The majority didn't escape because of fear of what would come if they were to escape. That said, it's widely accepted that even if they weren't all systematically beaten, they were kept slaves by fear of the force that would be used if they tried to escape slavery.
    yes, i know....blablabla

    so you aren't arguing all slaves were beaten , abused, or killed?... if not, why do you take offense to that fact being stated?





    Hey, it was you who claimed MaggieD wasn't an apologist. She clearly is. It wasn't that bad because their masters were kind. Whatever that means. How can you be kind and forcefully keep somebody enslaved at the same time? Generous wife beater fallacy.
    yes, I have claimed she is not an apologist.... and i've said i don't support slavery.... and yes, we also see you claim otherwise, despite the lack of standing or proof.


    pertaining to your wife beater argument... if a wife beater is a very good provider...does pointing out he is a good provider equate to supporting wifebeating?.. is it accurate to say he is a good provider who is still horrible for beating his wife?

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    This is an excellent question, and one you should probably be asking of yourself. The fact is, treatment of slaves in the antebellum south was brutal and degrading in a wide variety of ways. It was especially bad for female slaves, who were frequently subject to sexual violence, not to mention forced separation from their children. Lie to yourself all you want, but the fact remains, slaves were routinely subject to either actual beatings, or the threat thereof, extraordinarily long workdays, unsanitary living conditions and the diseases and high death rates that accompany same, and of course an almost total lack of legal rights. For example:

    "Yet we must never forget that these same welfare capitalist plantations in the Deep South were essentially ruled by terror. Even the most kindly and humane masters knew that only the threat of violence could force gangs of field hands to work from dawn to dusk, "with the discipline," as one contemporary observer put it, "of a regular trained army." Frequent public floggings reminded every slave of the penalty for inefficient labor, disorderly conduct, or refusal to accept the authority of a superior." - David Brion Davis (an historian at Yale and Cornell).

    And this:

    "Buried in tattered and filthy blankets ... here, in their hour of sickness, lay those whose health and strength are spent in unrequited labor for us ... to buy for us all the luxuries which health can revel in." - Frances Anne Kemble (a prominent abolishonist, married to a plantation owner) -http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4narr1.html

    And this:

    "On this plantation were more than 100 slaves who were mated indiscriminately and without any regard for family unions. If their master thought that a certain man and woman might have strong, healthy offspring, he forced them to have sexual relation, even though they were married to other slaves. If there seemed to be any slight reluctance on the part of either of the unfortunate ones, “Big Jim” would make them consummate this relationship in his presence. He used the same procedure if he thought a certain couple was not producing children fast enough. He enjoyed these orgies very much and often entertained his friends in this manner; quite often he and his guests would engage in these debaucheries, choosing for themselves the prettiest of the young women. Sometimes they forced the unhappy husbands and lovers of their victims to look on."
    -http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/enslavement/text6/masterslavesexualabuse.pdf

    and this:

    "Many authors of slave narratives agree that Christian slave owners were in fact the cruelest of all masters, including Jacobs, Douglas and Equiano. Douglas refers to these men as the “meanest and basest, the most cruel and cowardly, of all others”. This article enlightened me on many of the justifications that the slave owners believed in this time period. Extreme priests and slaveholders seek out Jesus-like sufferers to use in the crucifixion for their sins. For the Christian slave owner, this comes in the form of the enslaved African American whom they can beat to a pulp as a sign of devotion to the Lord."
    -http://www.nines.org/exhibits/Violence_in_Slavery

    Need I go on?
    you can go on if you like... but I'm not arguing cruelty , abuse, maltreatment, beatings, or killings didn't exist.... so it would be a wasted effort.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    you can go on if you like... but I'm not arguing cruelty , abuse, maltreatment, beatings, or killings didn't exist.... so it would be a wasted effort.
    You suggested that the common understanding that the treatment of slaves was bad was a lie. That amounts to the same thing.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Hey, it was you who claimed MaggieD wasn't an apologist. She clearly is. It wasn't that bad because their masters were kind. Whatever that means. How can you be kind and forcefully keep somebody enslaved at the same time? Generous wife beater fallacy.
    to the portion in bold....

    where did Maggie claim that "it" ( meaning slavery) wasn't that bad?

    that seems to be a value judgement you have assigned to her, rather than a value judgement she made herself

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    You suggested that the common understanding that the treatment of slaves was bad was a lie. That amounts to the same thing.
    no, I've "suggested" that many slaveowners did not beat, abuse , or kill, their slaves.. that, like maggie said, they treated them as prized possessions.( meaning they weren't abused because their labor was necessary to the slaveholders economic wellbeing... it's a "you don't slaughter the cash cow", kinda thing)

    if my words have carried the suggestion that abuse did not occur, then either i was unclear or misunderstood.. because it most certainly did occur.
    me stating it did not occur would be just as false as stating it always occurred.

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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    no, I've "suggested" that many slaveowners did not beat, abuse , or kill, their slaves.. that, like maggie said, they treated them as prized possessions.( meaning they weren't abused because their labor was necessary to the slaveholders economic wellbeing... it's a "you don't slaughter the cash cow", kinda thing)
    And this is exactly what I'm arguing against, because it's simply not true. Of course you don't slaughter the cash cow, but let's run with that analogy for a second. Pack animals were, in fact, routinely beaten. During the time period we're talking about they lived in squalid conditions. If they got sick, they were left to die, or shot to avoid spreading disease. They were interbred according to the whims of their owners. Is this really an analogy that's useful to your position? That slaves were treated like chattel?

    Furthermore, you're right that the labor of slaves was necessary to the slaveholders economy, but that doesn't really support the conclusion that you're suggesting, for at least two reasons:

    1) Because in order to get slaves to labor at the pace and to the degree necessary for plantations to be as profitable as they were, they needed to be under the constant threat of violence. Nobody works 12-14 hour days for no money without at least the threat - if not the actuality - of brutal force hanging over their heads.

    2) Look at the economics again. For the plantation owner to maximize profits, it's in his best interest to reduce costs. How does he do this? Among other ways by reducing any comfort in his slaves' lives. This leads to the conclusion that slaves routinely lived in squalid, disease-ridden conditions. Slaves were a renewable resource, both because they were bread and because for quite a while, more were constantly being shipped to north america. Why would the owner give a crap if individual slaves were used up and worn out after a short and brutal life? He could always breed or buy more.

    Of course we don't really need to reason this out at all, because there are plenty of surviving first-hand accounts that spell it out pretty clearly. I've pointed you to a couple of them already.

  9. #99
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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    And this is exactly what I'm arguing against, because it's simply not true. Of course you don't slaughter the cash cow, but let's run with that analogy for a second. Pack animals were, in fact, routinely beaten. During the time period we're talking about they lived in squalid conditions. If they got sick, they were left to die, or shot to avoid spreading disease. They were interbred according to the whims of their owners. Is this really an analogy that's useful to your position? That slaves were treated like chattel?

    Furthermore, you're right that the labor of slaves was necessary to the slaveholders economy, but that doesn't really support the conclusion that you're suggesting, for at least two reasons:

    1) Because in order to get slaves to labor at the pace and to the degree necessary for plantations to be as profitable as they were, they needed to be under the constant threat of violence. Nobody works 12-14 hour days for no money without at least the threat - if not the actuality - of brutal force hanging over their heads.

    2) Look at the economics again. For the plantation owner to maximize profits, it's in his best interest to reduce costs. How does he do this? Among other ways by reducing any comfort in his slaves' lives. This leads to the conclusion that slaves routinely lived in squalid, disease-ridden conditions. Slaves were a renewable resource, both because they were bread and because for quite a while, more were constantly being shipped to north america. Why would the owner give a crap if individual slaves were used up and worn out after a short and brutal life? He could always breed or buy more.

    Of course we don't really need to reason this out at all, because there are plenty of surviving first-hand accounts that spell it out pretty clearly. I've pointed you to a couple of them already.
    Don't expect Thrilla to answer in any honesty to this. The guy has been downplaying slavery while arguing he's not downplaying it but doing it anyways. The good wifebeater syndrome if I've ever seen one.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  10. #100
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    Re: 14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Kidnapping, breaking families apart and punishing those who try to escape is part of slavery's bones, so to speak. I'm referring to how they were treated on the plantations who bought them. Unless owners were psychotic, they didn't destroy the very people they viewed as valuable assets. JMVHO.
    Yeah, they were just flogged daily and raped
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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