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You’ll Need an ID to Prove You’re a Democrat but Not to Vote

PeteEU said:
Actions of the GOP in individual states. They could implement these ID programs for free.. but they have not. Instead they have put in road blocks that have made getting an ID cost money or you have to jump through more loopholes than Romney uses to get his 13% tax rate.
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:roll: And you have concrete examples of this, especially where such "road blocks" are put in intentionally?

Point is, it is not so "simple" to get such IDs that are accepted during voting and those that will get hurt by such laws are more than often... democratic voters.
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Well, that's the Democrat party line, anyway.
 
Harshaw said:
:roll: And you have concrete examples of this, especially where such "road blocks" are put in intentionally?
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Well, that's the Democrat party line, anyway.
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Yes it is, but they are in this case ... quite right in a large number of cases.
 
PeteEU said:
Actions of the GOP in individual states. They could implement these ID programs for free.. but they have not. Instead they have put in road blocks that have made getting an ID cost money or you have to jump through more loopholes than Romney uses to get his 13% tax rate.

Point is, it is not so "simple" to get such IDs that are accepted during voting and those that will get hurt by such laws are more than often... democratic voters.
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How are democratic voters going to be hurt by an identification? A democratic voter is not any less or more able to get an identification than anyone else, including those who have no party preference. The same standards would apply to all.
 
Harshaw said:
Oh, come on. That's weak. You must know that.
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I provided four different reasons why someone might not get a voter ID despite wanting to vote, all of which are legitimate concerns to some people. Not everyone lives the same lifestyle you do; some people simply can't take time off work to wait in line at the DMV, or don't have a car to get there, or don't follow the news closely enough to know that they even need to do anything. If the best response you have is "that's weak," it's quite obvious that you know perfectly well that voter ID laws are indefensible and unconscionable.

One more time -- that depends on when you get started, doesn't it? Besides, it doesn't have to apply to this election. And if it does, the states which have put it in place got started long ago.
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This is simply not correct. For example, Pennsylvania's law is still slated to go into effect for this election, and they just made the new voter ID card available last week.
New Pa. voter ID card available Tuesday | 6abc.com

This objection goes away completely if it doesn't take effect until, say, 2014.
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Yeah, but in many states it DOESN'T go into effect in 2014; you don't just get to pretend the reality is whatever you'd like it to be. Furthermore, all of the other objections I mentioned still apply regardless of when it takes effect.

And that's even taking for the sake of argument that it's actually a problem. Do you have evidence -- you know, the same kind of evidence you're demanding to show that voter fraud is a problem; real evidence -- which indicates it is, or are you just assuming it's likely because it seems reasonable?
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Why yes, as a matter of fact I do. As many as 11% of voters lack a government-issued photo ID...with the proportion even higher among minorities, poor people, seniors, and students.
Voter ID | Brennan Center for Justice

There was a point to it. :shrug:
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And yet you STILL didn't provide any evidence of an actual problem that voter ID will stop. AGAIN. :roll:
Just admit it: You know goddamn well that no such problem exists, and you want to do it anyway because you think it will help Republicans win elections if black people can't vote.
 
PeteEU said:




Yes it is, but they are in this case ... quite right in a large number of cases.
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Funny, but for these "large number of cases," you've produced no support other than a vague 13-second video clip with no context whatsoever.
 
PeteEU said:




Yes it is, but they are in this case ... quite right in a large number of cases.
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OMG! A 13-second You Tube clip!!! LOL~
 
ChrisL said:
How are democratic voters going to be hurt by an identification? A democratic voter is not any less or more able to get an identification than anyone else, including those who have no party preference. The same standards would apply to all.
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Not only that, but I recall being told many times, that most of the poor in trailer parks, swilling beer, are (R) voters. So if requiring ID would hurt either side, wouldn't it hurt both equally?
 
Kandahar said:
I provided four different reasons why someone might not get a voter ID despite wanting to vote, all of which are legitimate concerns to some people. Not everyone lives the same lifestyle you do; some people simply can't take time off work to wait in line at the DMV, or don't have a car to get there, or don't follow the news closely enough to know that they even need to do anything. If the best response you have is "that's weak," it's quite obvious that you know perfectly well that voter ID laws are indefensible and unconscionable.



This is simply not correct. For example, Pennsylvania's law is still slated to go into effect for this election, and they just made the new voter ID card available last week.
New Pa. voter ID card available Tuesday | 6abc.com



Yeah, but in many states it DOESN'T go into effect in 2014; you don't just get to pretend the reality is whatever you'd like it to be. Furthermore, all of the other objections I mentioned still apply regardless of when it takes effect.



Why yes, as a matter of fact I do. As many as 11% of voters lack a government-issued photo ID...with the proportion even higher among minorities, poor people, seniors, and students.
Voter ID | Brennan Center for Justice



And yet you STILL didn't provide any evidence of an actual problem that voter ID will stop. AGAIN. :roll:
Just admit it: You know goddamn well that no such problem exists, and you want to do it anyway because you think it will help Republicans win elections if black people can't vote.
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Give me a break. It is not HARD to get an identification. People who don't drive are not helpless! That is such a lame excuse if I've ever heard one. Minorities and people who don't drive can still get out to vote, and they can go and obtain a voter identification too.
 
Just admit it: You know goddamn well that no such problem exists, and you want to do it anyway because you think it will help Republicans win elections if black people can't vote.
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This is just dumb.
 
Kandahar said:
I provided four different reasons why someone might not get a voter ID despite wanting to vote, all of which are legitimate concerns to some people. Not everyone lives the same lifestyle you do; some people simply can't take time off work to wait in line at the DMV, or don't have a car to get there, or don't follow the news closely enough to know that they even need to do anything. If the best response you have is "that's weak," it's quite obvious that you know perfectly well that voter ID laws are indefensible and unconscionable.
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Oh, boo hoo hoo. I "know" no such thing; I do know you're crafting a silly tale of woe where they can somehow manage to vote, but they're too helpless to obtain an ID, even with assistance. "What if the DMV is further away than the voting booth," you said. Well, what if it's NOT?


This is simply not correct. For example, Pennsylvania's law is still slated to go into effect for this election, and they just made the new voter ID card available last week.
New Pa. voter ID card available Tuesday | 6abc.com
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That's funny; what I said was that they got started long ago, and obviously, they did. Now that the card is available, sixty days strikes me as an eminently reasonable period of time to get it done, if you want to.


Yeah, but in many states it DOESN'T go into effect in 2014; you don't just get to change the facts because you don't like them.
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I didn't "change" anything; I presented a scenario.

Furthermore, all of the other objections I mentioned still apply.
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What, even the transparently specious ones?

Why yes, as a matter of fact I do. As many as 11% of voters lack a government-issued photo ID...with the proportion even higher among minorities, poor people, seniors, and students.
Voter ID | Brennan Center for Justice
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I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, but that's not what I asked. You said the state offices don't have the capacity to process all of these new voter IDs in time for the election. Where's your evidence of this?


And yet you STILL didn't provide any evidence of an actual problem that voter ID will stop. AGAIN. :roll:
Just admit it: You know goddamn well that no such problem exists, and you want to do it anyway because you think it will help Republicans win elections if black people can't vote.
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Nice race-card vomit you spew there. It might be time for another one of your self-imposed exiles, if your blood pressure is up this high again.
 
Arbo said:
Not only that, but I recall being told many times, that most of the poor in trailer parks, swilling beer, are (R) voters. So if requiring ID would hurt either side, wouldn't it hurt both equally?
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Yes, how will those rednecks figure out how to obtain an identification? It's just a completely ridiculous argument.
 
A person needs an ID for some many important things in life, yet suddenly when this issue is raised, Democrat voters apparently don't have them. Are they the same Democrat voters that don't have cell phones, TVs, DVD players, or just the homeless? What is it that keeps them from obtaining an ID? All state DMVs issue pure IDs. If only citizens age 18 and older are allowed to vote, then it is implied that one must be able to prove their citizenship. If fact you are only allowed to vote in the district in which you live; is this not also an infringement on your right to vote? Why should the state be allowed to control where you vote? A vote is a vote, isn't it?

So all this hoopla about the requirement of an ID being unfair is just that. There can be only one reason to argue against it, and that is the need to leave a loophole of criminal activity. The same people that argue against this, support the requirement to register firearms (a constitutionally protected right).
 
ChrisL said:
Give me a break. It is not HARD to get an identification. People who don't drive are not helpless! That is such a lame excuse if I've ever heard one. Minorities and people who don't drive can still get out to vote, and they can go and obtain a voter identification too.
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I already explained the distinction between voting and getting a voter ID. Try to keep up with the thread. Not to mention that every additional hoop to jump through is one more barrier to voting, in order to solve a problem that doesn't exist. :roll:
 
haymarket said:
Except there is none here. The official US Constitution mentions the right to vote five times in five different places. Sadly, it never mentions the right to attend a political convention.

Equating opposition to an effort to diminsh and supress the Constitutional right to vote in pubic elections with an effort to maintain security at a private function is ludicrous and outright ridiculous.
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Yes the right to vote is clearly mentioned in the constitution in that if you meet certain requirements you have that right. There is no reason legitimate ID should not be one of the requirements you have to meet.
 
ChrisL said:
This is just dumb.
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Yes, I'm sure partisan politics has nothing to do with it. And that's the farthest thing from the minds of the elected officials who enacted these odious Jim Crow laws. :roll:
 
Kandahar said:
Yes, I'm sure partisan politics has nothing to do with it. And that's the farthest thing from the minds of the elected officials who enacted these odious Jim Crow laws. :roll:
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Heh.

Apparently you can't conceive of someone merely having a different view without it being for nefarious reasons.
 
Kandahar said:
I already explained the distinction between voting and getting a voter ID. Try to keep up with the thread. Not to mention that every additional hoop to jump through is one more barrier to voting, in order to solve a problem that doesn't exist. :roll:
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It's not a barrier at all. You cannot cash a check without identification. In some counties, you can be arrested for vagrancy if you have no ID. It is not in any way unreasonable to expect voters to have an identification.
 
In my state, I'd support a system in which a photo is taken at time of registration and becomes part of the registration rolls at the polling place. That way, identity can be confirmed when the registered voter signs in prior to voting. Seems like an easy way to ensure that the person who registered and the person who is voting are the same actual person.
 
ChrisL said:
A 13-second You Tube clip!
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I generally don't engage Youtube. People who use it as their argument are almost always conspiracy theorists, racists and/or Jew haters (and, rarely, fundies). I think it might take that level of cognitive shut-down to induce a blunder the likes of Argumentum ad Youtubem.

ChrisL said:
This is just dumb.
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You're probably correct. There are fun debates to be had.
 
ChrisL said:
How are democratic voters going to be hurt by an identification? A democratic voter is not any less or more able to get an identification than anyone else, including those who have no party preference. The same standards would apply to all.
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Income.. income for the love of god. 25 bucks is a lot of money for a huge portion of the American population. It is the difference between feeding your children or not. And like it or not, most "poor" city people vote Democratic.. and you try to deny that.. then forget this discussion because then you are not living on planet earth.
 
Kandahar said:
And yet...still no evidence of widespread voter fraud in this country. Come on, show some statistics that prove your case that we need voter IDs. If voter fraud is truly this widespread problem, then it shouldn't be difficult for you to produce some EVIDENCE of it instead of just bitching about "the liberals."
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Does it need to be Nationwide? What about in Key-States only? What happened with Minnesota and Franken and having Convicted Ex Felons voting for him while being locked up?
 
ecofarm said:
I generally don't engage Youtube. People who use it as their argument are almost always conspiracy theorists, racists and/or Jew haters (and, rarely, fundies). I think it might take that level of cognitive shut-down to induce a blunder the likes of Argumentum ad Youtubem.
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Whatever do you mean? That 13-second clip didn't convince you that requiring voter identification is all part of some evil plot?
 
Harshaw said:
Funny, but for these "large number of cases," you've produced no support other than a vague 13-second video clip with no context whatsoever.
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So you claim you have not seen that clip before and does not understand the context? Or are you just ignoring such obvious claims because they hurt your own argument? Do you deny there is a big attempt by the GOP to gerrymandering districts and restrict voting by any means possible including putting in voter ID systems that hurt especially the less well off and the elderly? Do you deny that in Ohio, the GOP attempted to restrict opening hours in only democratic areas, but not in republican areas? If you do deny this, then we have nothing to discuss because you live in a bubble world where the GOP can do no wrong .. and such people are impossible to talk to.. we would get more out of talking to a freaking chair like Clint Eastwood!

Oh and for the record.. I do believe there should be voter ID... a national wide, Federal ID program only for voting. One that states or local governments could NOT manipulate for their own political gain.
 
PeteEU said:
Income.. income for the love of god. 25 bucks is a lot of money for a huge portion of the American population. It is the difference between feeding your children or not. And like it or not, most "poor" city people vote Democratic.. and you try to deny that.. then forget this discussion because then you are not living on planet earth.
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Poor people can also get identification. They should have identification too. Everybody SHOULD. It's only common sense and not an outrageous request.
 
PeteEU said:
So you claim you have not seen that clip before and does not understand the context? Or are you just ignoring such obvious claims because they hurt your own argument? Do you deny there is a big attempt by the GOP to gerrymandering districts and restrict voting by any means possible including putting in voter ID systems that hurt especially the less well off and the elderly? Do you deny that in Ohio, the GOP attempted to restrict opening hours in only democratic areas, but not in republican areas? If you do deny this, then we have nothing to discuss because you live in a bubble world where the GOP can do no wrong .. and such people are impossible to talk to.. we would get more out of talking to a freaking chair like Clint Eastwood!
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Nice word salad, Pete, but where's your support?
 
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