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Thread: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    but the point is this is what can happen if you give womans rights away, one has to have more rights and this is a perfect example.
    Well first off, you don't give anyone's rights away. Rights cannot be given away. Secondly, this point is easily remedied by making law that says when mother's life is in danger as such, that abortion is legal. So it's not a very strong point. The nominal argument for abortion isn't woman's right to life vs. ZEF's right to life since in that it is widely accepted that the woman wins out. But rather the woman's right to I guess property is the most used argument, vs ZEF's right to life. And there are and continue to be many arguments along those lines. But things as this OP are easily circumvented and nigh universally accepted.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    this is one of those cases where I believe abortion to be the lesser evil... in no case should a woman have to submit herself to mortal danger like this...

    when the mother dies they both die... it isnt nice, but it is the truth, I choose the lesser loss in this case.
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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    In the US, I don't think this could have happened even if personhood was granted at conception. We allow killing in self defense. This would fit the bill.
    The cancer was killing the mother, not the fetus. Ergo, not self-defense.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well first off, you don't give anyone's rights away. Rights cannot be given away. Secondly, this point is easily remedied by making law that says when mother's life is in danger as such, that abortion is legal. So it's not a very strong point. The nominal argument for abortion isn't woman's right to life vs. ZEF's right to life since in that it is widely accepted that the woman wins out. But rather the woman's right to I guess property is the most used argument, vs ZEF's right to life. And there are and continue to be many arguments along those lines. But things as this OP are easily circumvented and nigh universally accepted.
    well in this case womans rights would in fact be taken away and if people voted to do so they would be taking them away in reality not talking about theory

    also odd you left out the rest of my post.


    the womans life in danger is NOT enough, defined danger? are you talking ANY percent of danger?

    the purest foundation of the abortion debate is definitely rights vs rights / life vs life the rest is just add ons in one direction or another.

    and I totally disagree that things like in the OP are "easily circumvented and nigh universally accepted" based on what.

    thats what my examples were for they quickly change lots of peoples minds unless again im asking are we talking any percentage of danger?
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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    well in this case womans rights would in fact be taken away and if people voted to do so they would be taking them away in reality not talking about theory
    No, you use government force to prevent the exercise of the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    also odd you left out the rest of my post.
    I didn't think it was quite necessary to quote the whole of it given what I was responding to.
    the womans life in danger is NOT enough, defined danger? are you talking ANY percent of danger?

    the purest foundation of the abortion debate is definitely rights vs rights / life vs life the rest is just add ons in one direction or another.

    and I totally disagree that things like in the OP are "easily circumvented and nigh universally accepted" based on what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    thats what my examples were for they quickly change lots of peoples minds unless again im asking are we talking any percentage of danger?
    There is innate danger with pregnancy in general given human biology. I think it's somewhere in the vicinity of ~500 women die each year in childbirth in the US. So that would probably be a baseline and you'd argue off of statistically resolved probabilities above that.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    1.)No, you use government force to prevent the exercise of the right.



    I didn't think it was quite necessary to quote the whole of it given what I was responding to.
    the womans life in danger is NOT enough, defined danger? are you talking ANY percent of danger?

    the purest foundation of the abortion debate is definitely rights vs rights / life vs life the rest is just add ons in one direction or another.

    and I totally disagree that things like in the OP are "easily circumvented and nigh universally accepted" based on what.



    2.)There is innate danger with pregnancy in general given human biology. I think it's somewhere in the vicinity of ~500 women die each year in childbirth in the US. So that would probably be a baseline and you'd argue off of statistically resolved probabilities above that.
    1.)semantics, fact is they would still be taken/given away
    2.) so again you arent giving a definition of what danger would actually be

    danger has many levels and thats the point, it becomes GREY real fast and i and many others wouldnt accept that only grave danger be accepted so like I said there actually is NOT any "easily circumvented and universally accepted" circumstances.
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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    just to be fair not sure she died because she was denied treatment, its possible though but I agree tragic none the less and she should not have been denied.
    Well - unfortunately we won't be able to play around and find out.

    One thing that Drs in the US learned a long time ago is that if you deny or withhold treatment you risk furthering injury or ailment - and risk death.

    Can't wing it on a hope and a prayer when it comes to healthcare.
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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Well - unfortunately we won't be able to play around and find out.

    One thing that Drs in the US learned a long time ago is that if you deny or withhold treatment you risk furthering injury or ailment - and risk death.

    Can't wing it on a hope and a prayer when it comes to healthcare.
    I agree 100%
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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    I agree 100%
    obviously you don't.
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    Re: Pregnant teen dies after abortion ban delays her chemo treatment for leukemia

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    obviously you don't.
    lol uhm huh?

    I do agree we wont be able to play around and found out
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