Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy[W:137]

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

TurtleDude said:

More disgraceful mischaracterization. I never said anything about suspicions. I am saying that its far easier to establish a rape took place when there is evidence of violence, threats of harm, weapons etc then when the ONLY material fact in dispute was consent

Nothing more nothing less

when you want to honestly discuss what i ACTUALLY SAID let me know

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Ok, so, AGAIN, why do Republicans always seem to make this distinction between "legitimate" rape and fake rape like the GOP senatorial candidate did, but not make it for other types of crime?

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

TurtleDude said:

It is a stupid argument politically. But I recall back in the good old days when I worked at PP and spent every saturday morning for a couple years arguing with the RIght to Lifers and the Operation Rescue bible thumpers-this issue would come up constantly and I finally talked to a top OB/GYN and She noted that violent rape is far less likely to cause pregnancy than consensual sex. Now that was almost 40 years ago and I have no clue if that is still something she would say-she died about 20 years ago

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Did the doctor also tell you that most rapes are commited by someone the girl or woman knew?

Forty or sixty years ago, women kept silent about rape and if they got pregnant outside of wedlock no matter the circumstances they were osrtracized by their families and society. Because of that, if the rapist didn't kill them, illegal abortions did. Ahh, the good ol days.

[QUOTE="vauge, post: 1058155572, member: 1"]Here are the Rules and Guidelines to help you properly use th

GOP candidate: “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down,” Akin continued. He did not provide an explanation for what constituted “legitimate rape.”
Missouri Republican claims ‘legitimate rape’ rarely results in pregnancy – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

Realizing this is only one person we ought to be restrained from faulty induction to prevent condemning everyone associated with the GOP while at the same time inquiring how someone with this mindset is in the business of elections. That short statement produces an enormous amount of commentary on the horrors of rape and how some still blame women and if they fail to "shut down" the biology of pro creation then it is acceptable to rape the women again by forcing laws between their legs. Is that what he meant by "legitimate rape?" The GOP needs a nuclear enema because it cannot afford even one person still living in the 16th century.

Re: Are We In The Year 1582?

I'm pretty sure in 1582 there was little talk of abortion or the conception process at all.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Here is my non-partisan take on this thing. Todd Akin, regardless of how he said it, does not believe in abortions even in the case of rape. I do believe he got caught up in the moment and probably did not convey the message the way he wanted to, however, that message still would have been that he doesn't believe in punishing the fetus in cases of rape.

I would not support this guy strictly on that basis alone. The rest of it is just spin and people need to stick to the basics IMO.

Re: Are We In The Year 1582?

tessaesque said:

I'm pretty sure in 1582 there was little talk of abortion or the conception process at all.

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1487– Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches), a witch-hunting manual, is published in Germany. It accuses midwives who perform abortions of committing witchcraft.

(The 1582 comment was directed more towards his claim women have a way of shutting down pro creation if they are raped)

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Well... he's scientifically correct. It is indeed true that the female body is drastically less likely to conceive from a rape, or while any other severe stressors are going on.

But how the hell does that answer the question? The question was not "how common is pregnancy resulting from rape?" The question was "would you deny a woman who's been rape access to abortion?"

I suppose he did, in a round-about way, which was "yes." We should force women to get raped all over again by carrying an unwanted fetus to term so they can reminded of their rape for the rest of their lives. Wonderful.

What a sick individual.

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though obviously stupid. the basic premise that a woman is unlikely to get pregnant from rape is true. it's not like a woman can get pregnant 365 days a year. there is a certain specific "window of opportunity" and unless the rape occurs during this time, she isn't going to get preggers. However, if a woman is raped and get pregnant and she does not want to carry her attacker's child...she should be able to get an abortion no questions asked.

Re: Are We In The Year 1582?

Sometimes the label "regressive" actually fits.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

teamosil said:

Ok, so, AGAIN, why do Republicans always seem to make this distinction between "legitimate" rape and fake rape like the GOP senatorial candidate did, but not make it for other types of crime?

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That isn't what he said at all. He was pointing to evidence or lack of evidence which is used in assessing all possible crimes.

Re: Are We In The Year 1582?

Wow. Gotta love stupid people tripping over himself.

This is definitely a case where the message behind his statement and its ramifications due to the clear intent matters much more than the potential notion of factuality regarding some of what he said. It was a ridiculous dumb thing to say and the type of thing that rightfully will drive votes away from him.

Also...as someone whose been close to someone on both sides of "date rape" situations (one being accused...one having it happen to them), I can understand Turtle's point that at times there can be a distinction between violent forcible rape that is accompanied with assault and battery and forms such as statutory rape or some forms of what’s thought of as “date rape”.

Also, I think attempting to attack turtle with a comparison of burglary or (what I imagine you really meant) battery is a bit dishonest. There’s rarely situations where an individual is voluntarily asking another person to physically batter them, so I understand not being perhaps as skeptical in such situations when it’s clearly not self-inflicted because there’s not a strong case that it may’ve been a consensual beating. Similarly with burglary and the notion of just giving your diamond ring or stereo-system away...even more if combined with B&E.

The entire date rape thing is just a sad and unfortunate situation in our society because no matter which way we go with it we’re going to have people horribly screwed. Be too skeptical of the individual claiming to be raped and you discourage women (and men) who have legitimately had such a situation from coming forward due to the stigma involved mixed with the potential skepticism and ridicule and difficulty in having it conclude in any seemingly justifiable way. Go too far on the other direction however, and you allow individuals making relatively reasonable and understandable decisions, or at least poor decisions that are poor for reasons other than because one thinks they’ll be labeled a rapist, to have their lives completely ruined. Look at the recent freeing of the football play Brian Banks.

I knew of a difficult with some individuals went to high school with that highlights the difficulty. The guy in this instance made the admittedly poor mistake of doing something in a somewhat public setting, as he and the girl messed around while at his place of work (a gym). This particular time they happened to get caught, and afterwards she claimed he had forced her to do it and she had said no and claimed rape.

Not you don’t want to be too skeptical because it absolutely could be what she was saying and to be too skeptical is to make a victim feel like a victim all over again, and discourage her from ever speaking out if such a horrible thing happens again. At the same time, based on what he friends had said, she had liked the guy for some time but had avoided going out with him because he was black a few years (She was a sophmore, he a senior) and her father definitely WOULDN’T approve...and the claim of it being “rape” did not materialize until after her father had arrived on scene. So you also almost want to be skeptical, as the guy being an adult is having the potential of his life forever being changed, getting listed as a sex offender and possibly looking at jail time for what may have been a consensual act or at the very least something he had every reasonable notion to believe was such.

It’s a horrible situation and issue we as a society face without any real good answer to it. So while I understand the desire to jump all over turtle, there’s a part of me that understands….not as means of justifying this idiots comment of “legitimate” rape, but more in a very generalized sense….the notion of there being somewhat of a difference in an individuals mind between truly significantly violent rape (IE with the violence going beyond just the act of the rape itself) and some forms of date rape that occur in terms of how their initial view of a situation may be.

Todd Akin, GOP Senate candidate: ‘Legitimate rape’ rarely causes pregnancy

Todd Akin, GOP Senate candidate: ‘Legitimate rape’ rarely causes pregnancy


First, he wants to make an distinction between 'legitimate rape' cases and all those other cases where the women was apparently asking for it.

“First of all, from what I understand from doctors, (pregnancy from rape) is really rare,” Akin told KTVI-TV in a clip posted to YouTube by the Democratic super PAC American Bridge. “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.”Akin added: “But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child.”​

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What child? The morning after pill doesn't 'attack a child'. The anti-women movement has pushed the concept of viable fetus back to conception. And conception via a violent crime.

In many states, the Tea Party, (you know, fiscal conservatives), have been passing these end-run laws around Roe v Wade -- interjecting big government into the doctor's office, privacy be damned.

This is the new tea party's idea of small government:

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Well... he's scientifically correct. It is indeed true that the female body is drastically less likely to conceive from a rape, or while any other severe stressors are going on.

But how the hell does that answer the question? The question was not "how common is pregnancy resulting from rape?" The question was "would you deny a woman who's been rape access to abortion?"

I suppose he did, in a round-about way, which was "yes." We should force women to get raped all over again by carrying an unwanted fetus to term so they can reminded of their rape for the rest of their lives. Wonderful.

What a sick individual.

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He claimed women can voluntarily "shut down" the process of pro creation. I hope all the contraceptive companies don't find out about that "science."

Re: Todd Akin, GOP Senate candidate: ‘Legitimate rape’ rarely causes pregnancy

Given that this is just the latest right wing GOP'er who has an abysmal knowledge of female reproductive functions, you gotta wonder how those folks every are able to replace themselves on the planet?

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Anyone who has tried to get pregnant can tell you that it can take months sometimes. A lot of sex can occur over the course of months. A lot. But only one of those times will result in pregnancy. So pregnancy from consensual sex is "rare"--w/e percentage 1 is of the total umber of times the couple has sex over the course of months while trying to have a baby.
Pregnancy from consensual sex is "rare".

So what're the stats?
How much more "rare" is it to conceive via consensual sex, or non-"legitimate rape", vs "legitimate rape"?
Is it more "rare"?

Are there any stats?
Or are there only FOAF stories?

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Well... he's scientifically correct. It is indeed true that the female body is drastically less likely to conceive from a rape, or while any other severe stressors are going on.

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What does "drastically" mean in this instance?
Is there any quantification available?

Re: Todd Akin, GOP Senate candidate: ‘Legitimate rape’ rarely causes pregnancy

Heheh already a few threads on this... merger time!

But yea, this guy is an idiot and took a good chance of a GOP pickup I believe in the Senate and turned it into a sure loss.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Furiounova said:

He claimed women can voluntarily "shut down" the process of pro creation. I hope all the contraceptive companies don't find out about that "science."

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No, he didn't. You (legitimately) disliking the way he handled this question does not justify you being dishonest and disingenuous yourself.

He said the female body has a way of making pregnancy less likely when subjected to rape. That is true. In fact, it is not just rape. It is all severe stressors. I've posted evidence to that affect. This is a well known phenomena.

It's also sort of obvious. Doesn't it just seem like a good idea evolutionarily for the reproductive organs to close shop when severe stress is going on?

There were no claims that it's 100% effective. And there were no claims it was voluntary. You are being disingenuous.

However, as I said, this does not address the question he was asked, which was whether he would support access to abortion for survivors of rape. His attempts to dodge that question (and ultimately answering it with a "no") are the real story here. They are the real offense to be taken.

You don't need to make things up, either about me or this guy, in order to have a contention with him. If you feel you do, then you don't have a very good argument, which is frankly hard to understand, since the argument here is so obvious.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

SmokeAndMirrors said:

No, he didn't. You (legitimately) disliking the way he handled this question does not justify you being dishonest and disingenuous yourself.

He said the female body has a way of making pregnancy less likely when subjected to rape. That is true. In fact, it is not just rape. It is all severe stressors. I've posted evidence to that affect. This is a well known phenomena.

It's also sort of obvious. Doesn't it just seem like a good idea evolutionarily for the reproductive organs to close shop when severe stress is going on?

There were no claims that it's 100% effective. And there were no claims it was voluntary. You are being disingenuous.

However, as I said, this does not address the question he was asked, which was whether he would support access to abortion for survivors of rape. His attempts to dodge that question (and ultimately answering it with a "no") are the real story here. They are the real offense to be taken.

You don't need to make things up, either about me or this guy, in order to have a contention with him. If you feel you do, then you don't have a very good argument, which is frankly hard to understand, since the argument here is so obvious.

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Let's look at what he said:

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."
He is saying the female body can react specifically to being raped and will try to shut down procreation.

You are saying stress of any kind can hinder procreation.

Those are two very different claims.

What he said was sick and implied rape victims who get pregnant are partially responsible for that pregnancy because their bodies failed to properly react to a "legitimate rape."

What do you think he meant by "legitimate rape?"

Re: Todd Akin, GOP Senate candidate: ‘Legitimate rape’ rarely causes pregnancy

haymarket said:

Given that this is just the latest right wing GOP'er who has an abysmal knowledge of female reproductive functions, you gotta wonder how those folks every are able to replace themselves on the planet?

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Maybe his parents never had "the talk" with him...

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Furiounova said:

Let's look at what he said:

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."
He is saying the female body can react specifically to being raped and will try to shut down procreation.

You are saying stress of any kind can hinder procreation.

Those are two very different claims.

What he said was sick and implied rape victims who get pregnant are partially responsible for that pregnancy because their bodies failed to properly react to a "legitimate rape."

What do you think he meant by "legitimate rape?"

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And yet, his statement is accurate. It was probably spoon-fed to him as a generic way of trying to avoid questions about abortion, therefore he only understands it in the context of rape. It applies to more than just rape, but it is none the less true that it applies to rape as well.

His statement included words like "try" and "rare," both of which imply this mechanism is imperfect (which is true). I have no idea what the hell "legitimate rape" is supposed to mean, but none of that is the point.

Countering dishonest, slimy people with dishonest, slimy debate tactics does not make you the better person.

It is completely possible to attack his argument while sticking to the issue. You do not need to get mired in hack politics to do so.

What I would like to know is why he thinks women who've been raped should be forced through pregnancy. I would like to know why he doesn't believe women are even human enough to have bodily integrity. Everything else is immaterial.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Does this mean you can think the sperm away? "No, no, no, don't fertilize my little eggy."

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Luna Tick said:

Does this mean you can think the sperm away? "No, no, no, don't fertilize my little eggy."

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No, but hormones and chemicals in your body can certainly damage the chances of successful conception or pregnancy. That is the basis on which BC works, after all. Your body is flooded with all kinds of hormones in unusual quantities when you experience extreme stress. While it is certainly not as effective as BC, it does lower the chances of conception or viable pregnancy.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

SmokeAndMirrors said:

And yet, his statement is accurate. It was probably spoon-fed to him as a generic way of trying to avoid questions about abortion, therefore he only understands it in the context of rape. It applies to more than just rape, but it is none the less true that it applies to rape as well.

His statement included words like "try" and "rare," both of which imply this mechanism is imperfect (which is true). I have no idea what the hell "legitimate rape" is supposed to mean, but none of that is the point.

Countering dishonest, slimy people with dishonest, slimy debate tactics does not make you the better person.

It is completely possible to attack his argument while sticking to the issue. You do not need to get mired in hack politics to do so.

What I would like to know is why he thinks women who've been raped should be forced through pregnancy. I would like to know why he doesn't believe women are even human enough to have bodily integrity. Everything else is immaterial.

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He claimed females bodies can shut down procreation specifically in response to a "legitimate rape" and that is one hundred percent false.

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

Furiounova said:

Let's look at what he said:

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."
He is saying the female body can react specifically to being raped and will try to shut down procreation.

You are saying stress of any kind can hinder procreation.

Those are two very different claims.

What he said was sick and implied rape victims who get pregnant are partially responsible for that pregnancy because their bodies failed to properly react to a "legitimate rape."

What do you think he meant by "legitimate rape?"

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but you falsely, surprise...surprise, claimed that he stated women could voluntarily 'shut down" the process. he made no such claim. lying about it detracts from your spurious credibility

Re: Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy

OscarB63 said:

but you falsely, surprise...surprise, claimed that he stated women could voluntarily 'shut down" the process. he made no such claim. lying about it detracts from your spurious credibility

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I don't care if he said "voluntarily" or not. If there's sperm and an egg, pregnancy is a possibility. Does this guy need to go back to "abstinence only" sex ed? Apparently he didn't even absorb that information.