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Thread: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    yes, but what does that have to do with hate crimes?
    The distinction in penalties is (as with HCE's) based upon difference in harm/consequence. A successful bus bombing means dozens of people killed or injured. An arson may result in massive property damage, but little or no loss of life. You can put away a pyromaniac in a mental hospital, or imprison someone who committed arson for rational (but criminal) reasons...but no courtroom can bring back people killed in a bombing.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    I agree with Bobcat. A crime is a crime. I think it's a slippery slope when the law tries to get into someone's head and determine what they are thinking in the course of a crime. People who kill children aren't charged with hate crimes against children. People who rape and kill women aren't charged with hate crimes against women. Regardless of what the person is thinking when they were committing the crime, it doesn't make the crime any worse or better IMO.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I've never understood the legal distinction between murder and attempted murder. To me, this says you get a partial free-pass for being incompetent. To me, if you planned and meant and tried to kill them, success or failure should be irrelevant.
    It's because of the fact there is a distinction between living and deceased victim. That is why murder and attempted murder are punished differently. Punishments are mostly about type and amount of harm that has happened to the victim.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Remember kids, you cannot be convicted of a hate crime merely because you target a specific race/gender that you hate, even if the crime is exclusively for the purpose of creating terror.

    And that's it. I'm out. Feel free to gloat over how I've fled the field, while you haven't a clue what hate crime legislation in the US actually entails.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    Ok one more time.

    1. a white guy murders a black guy to steal his wallet

    2. a different white guy murders a black guy because he hates blacks

    you want to give guy #2 a harsher punishment. Why? because you don't approve of what he was thinking. That is foolishness.
    First of all hate crime laws were passed because all white juries were letting defendants of racially motivated murders off after the passage of the civil rights act. This made it a Federal offense rather than a local one which means they could prosecute in Federal courts.

    Second of all the fallout of racially motivated murders have a sociatal impact.

    Both of those together are why we have hate crime legislation.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How can you determine if there is hate in someone's heart? Unless there is CLEAR evidence of hate (such as racial slurs, things like that), I don't see how anyone can assume to know how someone else feels.
    Concrete evidence of sustained, focused animus against members of a protected class is an explicit requirement of obtaining an HCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That is just one reason why I don't feel comfortable with hate crime legislation.
    Hate crime enhancements don't penalize feelings per se. You can have a heart filled with the most venomous bigotry you can think of...and so long as you never commit a crime which is demonstrated to have been motivated by that animus, you would never face even the attempt to have your sentence heightened through an HCE.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I think the hate crime designation is pretty useless. "It was a hate crime." "No! It wasn't!" "Yes! It was!" Ad infinitum. The guy shot somebody; attempted murder. Let the judge decide if it was a hate crime after they convict him. Then he can use whatever sentence so applies.

    Trying to also convince the jury it was a hate crime could very possibly confuse the jury. He should be tried for attempted murder. That's the crime that was committed.
    As far as I am concerned, the very concept of “hate crime” is Orwellian, not very much unlike the concept of “thoughtcrime”.

    A crime is what someone does, not what he thinks or feels.

    It doesn't matter if Mr. Corkins hated the Family Research Council. It doesn't matter if he hated the guard. What matters is that he committed an assault, using a deadly weapon, with the apparent intent to commit murder. That is the crime, and nothing else.
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    As far as I am concerned, the very concept of “hate crime” is Orwellian, not very much unlike the concept of “thoughtcrime”.

    A crime is what someone does, not what he thinks or feels.

    It doesn't matter if Mr. Corkins hated the Family Research Council. It doesn't matter if he hated the guard. What matters is that he committed an assault, using a deadly weapon, with the apparent intent to commit murder. That is the crime, and nothing else.
    So let me ask you, maybe you will actually answer: Do you disaprove of domestic terrorism laws for the same reason.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Concrete evidence of sustained, focused animus against members of a protected class is an explicit requirement of obtaining an HCE.



    Hate crime enhancements don't penalize feelings per se. You can have a heart filled with the most venomous bigotry you can think of...and so long as you never commit a crime which is demonstrated to have been motivated by that animus, you would never face even the attempt to have your sentence heightened through an HCE.
    I think hate crime legislation is a horrible idea. Prosecute people for the crime they committed, not what was going on in their head when they committed the crime. It IS like legislating thought. Madness.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I ask again: do you approve of this case being tried as domestic terrorism, since using your argument domsetic terrorism laws are wrong, since they are based on motivation.
    domestic terrorism and hate crimes are two different things. The Ft Hood shooting and FRC shooting were both domestic terrorism, but since we cannot read the minds of the shooters we don't know if they were hate crimes.

    but you ignored my question:

    1. a white guy murders a black guy to steal his wallet

    2. a different white guy murders a black guy because he hates blacks

    you want to give guy #2 a harsher punishment. Why? because you don't approve of what he was thinking.
    "Just get the hell out of my way" John Galt to the government in Atlas Shrugged.

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