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Thread: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

  1. #181
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    So if white people can claim to be victims of a "hate crime," then what is the point of this legislation? And where does it end? Some people keep saying it is to protect "minorities" and minority communities from persecution in so many words, but white people are not (as of yet) a minority. What is wrong with the laws that already exist? They aren't good enough? Why do we have to have "extra" laws for certain motivations? I can understand how certain communities would be upset about a specific crime, but to make laws so that there aren't "riots?" None of the explanations I have received answer this question to my satisfaction.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    So if white people can claim to be victims of a "hate crime," then what is the point of this legislation? And where does it end? Some people keep saying it is to protect "minorities" and minority communities from persecution in so many words, but white people are not (as of yet) a minority. What is wrong with the laws that already exist? They aren't good enough? Why do we have to have "extra" laws for certain motivations? I can understand how certain communities would be upset about a specific crime, but to make laws so that there aren't "riots?" None of the explanations I have received answer this question to my satisfaction.
    I do not interpret "hate crime" laws in the manner you describe. I follow this guideline: "Any crime motivated by a bias against a person or group based on their ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, religion etc... is a hate crime"

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    I do not interpret "hate crime" laws in the manner you describe. I follow this guideline: "Any crime motivated by a bias against a person or group based on their ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, religion etc... is a hate crime"
    Okay, but that still doesn't answer my underlying question. Why do we need this kind of legislation when these crimes are already against the law and carry a penalty. Why is the motive of "bias" worse than the motive of "I just like hurting or killing people?"

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Okay, but that still doesn't answer my underlying question. Why do we need this kind of legislation when these crimes are already against the law and carry a penalty. Why is the motive of "bias" worse than the motive of "I just like hurting or killing people?"
    The penalties are harsher for hate crimes and are meant to act as a deterrent for future activities of this type.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    The penalties are harsher for hate crimes and are meant to act as a deterrent for future activities of this type.
    So is the death penalty. Doesn't make it right though. These crimes are the SAME crime, just with different motives. It doesn't make any sense to treat one any differently than another because I believe that MOST people who do these types of things are not of sound mind to begin with (not that they are insane, just not of sound mind). It is stupid because there is no end to this type of logic. Someone who is short could claim that they were assaulted because they were short. We already have laws, and they should be applied EQUALLY to all IMO.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Incorrect. While hate crime enhancements are far, FAR less likely to be obtained if/when the target of a crime is (or is perceived to be) the member of a privileged or dominant group on the axis of the protected class, it's still possible. The catch isn't that privileged and dominant groups (on a given axis) CAN'T be targeted...rather, it's that they are much less likely to be targets in the first place, and the potential perpetrators who would ostensibly target them -- typically NOT being of the same group -- face much higher risks.
    My argument has been ethical, not legal. I think I made that pretty clear in an earlier post. There was a recent case where a black man was accused of a hate crime against a white man. Such incidents, however, are rare.

    Dominant groups cannot, by definition, face undue humiliation simply because their people belong to those groups. Minority groups can. They are already behind the eight-ball as is, for whatever reason, and hate crimes worsen that situation for them.

    Another -- rarely discussed -- aspect is that the perpetrators of hate crimes are far more likely to come from among groups which are privileged (on the axis in question) because of the sense of invulnerability or entitlement that comes with such privilege. It's much harder to maintain a pretense (let alone sincere belief) in something like black supremacism while living in the United States, because the concrete indicators of financial success and political influence (i.e. income, holding positions in high office, heading up big business, etc.) all contradict such a doctrine. This doesn't absolutely prevent such a doctrine, but it does make it more difficult to hold on to. White supremacists, on the other hand, can point to real, concrete, pervasive advantages of "whites" over nonwhites in many aspects of daily life (which they then warp and distort to lend ideological support to all manner of nonsense). Put another way: you're less likely to believe both in the righteousness AND in the likelihood of getting away with something if and when your political and economic context either doesn't contradict that expectation, or at least does so only weakly.
    Now this I strongly agree with. Hate crimes usually have the intentional or unintentional result of further maintaining the undeserved privileges of the dominant group and the tribulations of the oppressed group.
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    So is the death penalty. Doesn't make it right though. These crimes are the SAME crime, just with different motives. It doesn't make any sense to treat one any differently than another because I believe that MOST people who do these types of things are not of sound mind to begin with (not that they are insane, just not of sound mind). It is stupid because there is no end to this type of logic. Someone who is short could claim that they were assaulted because they were short. We already have laws, and they should be applied EQUALLY to all IMO.

    You asked for the reasoning behind it, I provided that reasoning. Whether people agree with it or not requisite element.


    Same crime with "different motives" that is the linchpin for assigning a penalty, I see nothing wrong with that. Indeed, there are laws in various jurisdictions where killing a peace officer etc is automatically considered first degree murder where someone who is not a peace officer may not warrant first degree murder for the same act but second degree murder in New York. As such, the penalties are different first degree murder is death penalty or life imprisonment second degree murder is 10 to 25 years in prison. Following your logic the same crime different motives, but, it is not in reality.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    You asked for the reasoning behind it, I provided that reasoning. Whether people agree with it or not requisite element.


    Same crime with "different motives" that is the linchpin for assigning a penalty, I see nothing wrong with that. Indeed, there are laws in various jurisdictions where killing a peace officer etc is automatically considered first degree murder where someone who is not a peace officer may not warrant first degree murder for the same act but second degree murder in New York. As such, the penalties are different first degree murder is death penalty or life imprisonment second degree murder is 10 to 25 years in prison. Following your logic the same crime different motives, but, it is not in reality.
    Yeah, at the rate we're going, we can look forward to many more arbitrary laws to come.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Yeah, at the rate we're going, we can look forward to many more arbitrary laws to come.
    I do not find it arbitrary in fact I find it both a creative and sophisticated endeavour. Not all crimes are created or committed equal and a single application or resolution is a disservice to both the individual and society, moreover constitutional issues would undoubtedly arise with such an approach.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    I do not find it arbitrary in fact I find it both a creative and sophisticated endeavour. Not all crimes are created or committed equal and a single application or resolution is a disservice to both the individual and society, moreover constitutional issues would undoubtedly arise with such an approach.
    Well, that's your opinion. IMO, this kind of legislation opens the door to all kinds of "NEW and IMPROVED" (or so they will have you believe/without considering possible unintentional consequences - - there always are) laws and bans and control. Why is hate crime legislation coming from the FEDERAL government? I don't think it's the governments place to tell anyone how to think or feel, or to say that these thoughts and feelings are worse than these thoughts and feelings. I don't feel comfortable with this kind of legislation at all.

    So, I guess we just agree to disagree then. It was nice talking with someone who can actually be respectful and kind though. Thanks for that.

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