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Thread: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    domestic terrorism and hate crimes are two different things. The Ft Hood shooting and FRC shooting were both domestic terrorism, but since we cannot read the minds of the shooters we don't know if they were hate crimes.

    but you ignored my question:

    1. a white guy murders a black guy to steal his wallet

    2. a different white guy murders a black guy because he hates blacks

    you want to give guy #2 a harsher punishment. Why? because you don't approve of what he was thinking.
    Domestic terrorism is, by the law, a crime of motive. It has to be a crime commited to intimidate, coerce, influence or effect the civilian population or governent. So if your objection to hate crime laws is that it is a crime of motive, the same objection would apply to the domestic terrorism law.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    In the words of John McInroe, "you cannnot be serious". do you have any idea how foolish you sound?
    You'll have to forgive me for insisting that facts matter.

    You will never, ever, EVER convince me that it is better to discuss issues on the basis of ignorance and misinformation than upon facts.

    If you are unwilling or unable to address the issue of HCE's on the basis of how they actually operate (which is upon the basis of recognition of additional harm, NOT upon thought police or "thought crimes" or any such nonsense), just say so and be done with it.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    HCE's are not based upon supposition of what an offender was or was not thinking. They are based upon recognition of additional harm to a community or communities.
    How is the community harmed specifically any differently than when a child is raped and murdered or anyone for that matter. Communities will always be terrorized by crazy killers. That doesn't make any sense at all. Besides, just charging them with the crime they committed is good enough. There is absolutely no reason at all to make one motive for murder any worse than another.



    All ethical arguments aside, there's an obvious reason for that. AGE is not a protected class under hate crime enhancement legislation. An offender could give a direct, first-person admission that he committed murder specifically because he despises children, and that he wanted to terrorize children...and there would still be no legal mechanism for carry an HCE based upon AGE.
    There are killers who rape and kill only children. According to your logic, children should be a protected class too. A killer of children is terrorizing children, and they are no less important than any minority.



    That's because -- unless a prosecutor can provide strong evidence to suggest that a rape was specifically motivated by animus towards women -- there is no legal basis to pursue an HCE. It would be spectacularly difficult to argue for and obtain an HCE in a rape case because you'd need to first have an offender found guilty of raping both men and women (or at least attempting to do so), and then -- on top of that -- provide evidence that a specific charge of rape was motivated by a specific animus towards men, or towards women (as opposed to the intuitive and expected explanation which would suggest that the rape was motivated by a desire to impose the offender's will upon the victim through sexual violence).
    They're are plenty of rapists and women-killers who have admitted to hating women. Women are also a minority class. According to your logic, we should be protected too. Are WE any less important than other minority? When there is a rapist or a woman-killer loose in the community, women feel terrorized, frightened and victimized.



    HCE's make no attempt to address what specific thoughts may have been in the offender's head at the time. Demonstration of the offender's motivation for the crime must go beyond the moment of the crime, and be shown to have been based upon specific animus.

    The additional penalties for a criminal sentence (the "enhancement" part of Hate Crime Enhancement) are NOT based upon the thoughts or imagined thoughts of the offender...they are based upon the recognition of additional harm resulting from the crime.

    If you are incapable of, or unwilling, to acknowledge this additional harm, that's one thing...but at least have the intellectual honesty to support or oppose HCEs based upon how they ACTUALLY operate (which is upon recognition of additional harm, NOT upon any attempts to speculated about anyone's thoughts at the time of the crime).
    No. I think hate crime legislation makes no sense in the big picture, and I think it is punishing for the motive, not the result of the crime committed.

  4. #104
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Why is it WORSE to kill someone because you don't like their race/gender versus killing someone for the joy of killing because you're a psychopath or killing someone because you think they might have a lot of money or a guy raping and killing a woman just because he thinks he can? All have the same outcome, and THAT is what matters, IMO. One is no worse than the other. They are ALL bad.
    They do NOT all have the same outcome.

    If you come home from work, find your spouse having sex with someone else, and commit murder out of rage and jealousy, that's one or two people killed...but the basis of the rage is intuitive and the social shock is at the violence...NOT at the violence and the motive.

    If you murder an "interracial" couple because you have a long history of vocal opposition to "race-mixing" and you have frequently expressed the sentiment in public settings and/or in writing that you don't want to see the "dilution" of some "superior race," then your murder of the couple doesn't just result in two people killed...it sends a message which threatens all so-called "interracial" couples.

    In the former case, there is a basic social value (marital fidelity) considered positive which has been violated, and so the murder in the former case -- while still horrible and still recognized as a crime -- does not pose any threat to the struggle to uphold any further values or practices based upon those values.

    In the latter case, there is the additional harm of threatening the potential of working against racist oppression and positive "interracial" relationships. If/when the justice system fails to address this additional harm, it effectively sends a green light message for others who are willing to commit criminal violence in order to pursue their political agenda of promoting racism.

    Once AGAIN -- if you don't see the additional harm, then that's your prerogative...but the concept of recognizing additional harm (NOT any nonsense about punishing thought) IS the basis of HCE's.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    How about we take a look at serial killers? Serial killers will sometimes have very age-specific, gender-specific or race-specific targets. Sometimes it is because they are sexually attracted to these people. Hate crime? Is it worse than someone who just kills people indiscriminately? One will put a certain type of person at risk. The other one puts anybody at risk.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    They do NOT all have the same outcome.

    If you come home from work, find your spouse having sex with someone else, and commit murder out of rage and jealousy, that's one or two people killed...but the basis of the rage is intuitive and the social shock is at the violence...NOT at the violence and the motive.

    If you murder an "interracial" couple because you have a long history of vocal opposition to "race-mixing" and you have frequently expressed the sentiment in public settings and/or in writing that you don't want to see the "dilution" of some "superior race," then your murder of the couple doesn't just result in two people killed...it sends a message which threatens all so-called "interracial" couples.

    In the former case, there is a basic social value (marital fidelity) considered positive which has been violated, and so the murder in the former case -- while still horrible and still recognized as a crime -- does not pose any threat to the struggle to uphold any further values or practices based upon those values.

    In the latter case, there is the additional harm of threatening the potential of working against racist oppression and positive "interracial" relationships. If/when the justice system fails to address this additional harm, it effectively sends a green light message for others who are willing to commit criminal violence in order to pursue their political agenda of promoting racism.

    Once AGAIN -- if you don't see the additional harm, then that's your prerogative...but the concept of recognizing additional harm (NOT any nonsense about punishing thought) IS the basis of HCE's.
    See, you're totally assuming things. You are assuming that there will be copycats. You are assuming that the specific targeted community will feel victimized. You are assuming that a specific crime will incite or promote racism. All of which you have no proof would ever occur.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    In effect, whether it's intended or not, you reward failure.
    While it might be true in that sense, but giving someone a life in prison or death sentence to someone who attempted murder someone would be like saying the victim of a murderer is less deserving of justice than the victim of an attempted murderer or that the victim of the attempted murderer should get the same justice that a victim of a murderer got.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Tell that to the wife and kids of a guy who was murdered for his money. I'm sure they'll understand.
    How do the wife and kids of a man murdered for his money negate the reality that hate crimes have broader potential societal consequences than regular crimes?

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    only in the fantasy world inhabited by liberals. murder is murder, what the criminal was thinking at the time makes absolutely no difference.

    BTW, you cannot legislate thought, you cannot control what people think. I would like to make all liberal thought illegal, but unfortunately thats not going to happen
    I appreciate your response that was both arrogant and ignorant at the same time.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    You say that as if "hate" is a one-way street.
    Actually, that's not how I said it as my comment gave two different ways of the street the possibility of being motivated by hate, but I appreciate your right to not comprehend my posts.

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