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Thread: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

  1. #91
    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    Ok one more time.

    1. a white guy murders a black guy to steal his wallet
    No basis for an HCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    2. a different white guy murders a black guy because he hates blacks
    POSSIBLE basis for an HCE, but only if a prosecutor can marshal strong evidence of BOTH:

    1) the claim that the offender bore a specific animus against "black" people

    AND

    2) that he committed the murder with that animus as the motivation. For example, if he lost a cash game of pool in a bar and then murdered the man shortly afterwards, his defense counsel could (and likely would) defeat an attempt at obtaining an HCE by arguing that the murder was motivated by frustration at the loss. It would still be murder, but it would be very difficult to carry the HCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    you want to give guy #2 a harsher punishment. Why? because you don't approve of what he was thinking.
    WRONG. The basis of HCE's is recognition of additional harm to larger communities beyond the direct victim. Every time you repeat this assertion about punishing thinking, you are participating in deliberate distortion. You have been exposed to the actual reasoning behind HCE's multiple times in this thread alone already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    That is foolishness.
    It WOULD be foolishness...if that were actually the basis (in theory or in practice) of HCE's. It isn't.

    Now...do you have any interest in addressing the ACTUAL basis of HCE's, or do you intend to go on pretending it to be something it's not?
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  2. #92
    Guru Bobcat's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Concrete evidence of sustained, focused animus against members of a protected class is an explicit requirement of obtaining an HCE.



    Hate crime enhancements don't penalize feelings per se. You can have a heart filled with the most venomous bigotry you can think of...and so long as you never commit a crime which is demonstrated to have been motivated by that animus, you would never face even the attempt to have your sentence heightened through an HCE.
    In the words of John McInroe, "you cannnot be serious". do you have any idea how foolish you sound?
    "Just get the hell out of my way" John Galt to the government in Atlas Shrugged.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Terrorist acts are associated with political gain or some kind of gain for a nation.

  4. #94
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It's because of the fact there is a distinction between living and deceased victim. That is why murder and attempted murder are punished differently. Punishments are mostly about type and amount of harm that has happened to the victim.
    In effect, whether it's intended or not, you reward failure.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    No basis for an HCE.



    POSSIBLE basis for an HCE, but only if a prosecutor can marshal strong evidence of BOTH:

    1) the claim that the offender bore a specific animus against "black" people

    AND

    2) that he committed the murder with that animus as the motivation. For example, if he lost a cash game of pool in a bar and then murdered the man shortly afterwards, his defense counsel could (and likely would) defeat an attempt at obtaining an HCE by arguing that the murder was motivated by frustration at the loss. It would still be murder, but it would be very difficult to carry the HCE.



    WRONG. The basis of HCE's is recognition of additional harm to larger communities beyond the direct victim. Every time you repeat this assertion about punishing thinking, you are participating in deliberate distortion. You have been exposed to the actual reasoning behind HCE's multiple times in this thread alone already.



    It WOULD be foolishness...if that were actually the basis (in theory or in practice) of HCE's. It isn't.

    Now...do you have any interest in addressing the ACTUAL basis of HCE's, or do you intend to go on pretending it to be something it's not?
    So now its not just hating the person you killed, its hating the entire community. this gets more laughable with each new post from you.
    "Just get the hell out of my way" John Galt to the government in Atlas Shrugged.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's not true. Hate crimes have broader potential societal consequences than regular crimes which is why they are distinguished.
    This.

    Crimes are crimes against individuals.
    Hate crimes are crimes against groups.
    Terrorism is crimes against societies.

    A hate crime, by definition, is intended to target far more than just the individual: It is intended to intimidate those belonging to his or her oppressed minorities.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Why is it WORSE to kill someone because you don't like their race/gender versus killing someone for the joy of killing because you're a psychopath or killing someone because you think they might have a lot of money or a guy raping and killing a woman just because he thinks he can? All have the same outcome, and THAT is what matters, IMO. One is no worse than the other. They are ALL bad.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Why is it WORSE to kill someone because you don't like their race/gender versus killing someone for the joy of killing because you're a psychopath or killing someone because you think they might have a lot of money or a guy raping and killing a woman just because he thinks he can? All have the same outcome, and THAT is what matters, IMO. One is no worse than the other. They are ALL bad.
    Do you believe that vehicular homicide should be punishable by life without parole?
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  9. #99
    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I agree with Bobcat. A crime is a crime. I think it's a slippery slope when the law tries to get into someone's head and determine what they are thinking in the course of a crime.
    HCE's are not based upon supposition of what an offender was or was not thinking. They are based upon recognition of additional harm to a community or communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    People who kill children aren't charged with hate crimes against children.
    All ethical arguments aside, there's an obvious reason for that. AGE is not a protected class under hate crime enhancement legislation. An offender could give a direct, first-person admission that he committed murder specifically because he despises children, and that he wanted to terrorize children...and there would still be no legal mechanism for carry an HCE based upon AGE.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    People who rape and kill women aren't charged with hate crimes against women.
    That's because -- unless a prosecutor can provide strong evidence to suggest that a rape was specifically motivated by animus towards women -- there is no legal basis to pursue an HCE. It would be spectacularly difficult to argue for and obtain an HCE in a rape case because you'd need to first have an offender found guilty of raping both men and women (or at least attempting to do so), and then -- on top of that -- provide evidence that a specific charge of rape was motivated by a specific animus towards men, or towards women (as opposed to the intuitive and expected explanation which would suggest that the rape was motivated by a desire to impose the offender's will upon the victim through sexual violence).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Regardless of what the person is thinking when they were committing the crime, it doesn't make the crime any worse or better IMO.
    HCE's make no attempt to address what specific thoughts may have been in the offender's head at the time. Demonstration of the offender's motivation for the crime must go beyond the moment of the crime, and be shown to have been based upon specific animus.

    The additional penalties for a criminal sentence (the "enhancement" part of Hate Crime Enhancement) are NOT based upon the thoughts or imagined thoughts of the offender...they are based upon the recognition of additional harm resulting from the crime.

    If you are incapable of, or unwilling, to acknowledge this additional harm, that's one thing...but at least have the intellectual honesty to support or oppose HCEs based upon how they ACTUALLY operate (which is upon recognition of additional harm, NOT upon any attempts to speculated about anyone's thoughts at the time of the crime).
    Last edited by cmakaioz; 08-17-12 at 05:19 PM.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is the Family Research Council shooting a hate crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    This.

    Crimes are crimes against individuals.
    Hate crimes are crimes against groups.
    Terrorism is crimes against societies.

    A hate crime, by definition, is intended to target far more than just the individual: It is intended to intimidate those belonging to his or her oppressed minorities.
    That might be the legal definition, but it is the justice system overstepping boundaries IMO. People should be punished accordingly for the crime committed, not assumptions on why.

    Explain why women are not allowed to claim "hate crime" when they are raped please.

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