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Thread: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

  1. #21
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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Agreed, people will be people. But the purchasing public imposes fiscal discipline on competitive private enterprises, where government does not.
    That may apply to Mom & Pops and even slightly larger companies but once you get into MegaCorp range I disagree completely. By their sheer size those corporations will absorb those irregularities without even knowing they were there.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-11-12 at 09:18 PM.
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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by cbaber View Post
    Great points. But why wouldn't the government be run like any other business? [...]
    Because when private business kicks their employees to the curb with no healthcare or no pension (despite the employees paying into those plans), the employees have to go on government welfare (or avail themselves of government programs like unemployment insurance or pension guarantees, all funded by tax revenues or private insurance premiums).

    Given that, explain the logic of the government kicking its employees to the curb with no healthcare or no pension, requiring that in order to survive the employee has to go on.... government welfare.

    What Ryan (and others) are telling people is that 'yes, you've been screwed by your employer, so to make things fair, the federal government is now going to screw its employees too.' It's the classic race to the bottom for the workers and the middle class (the other usual right wing excuse for cutting the workers' standard of living is foreign competition).

    I don't believe it is fair that taxpayers pay for your retirement when private sector workers have to contribute to their retirement plans as well.
    All employees contribute to their retirement -- it's called working. A little historical research on worker benefits that were spawned during the wage controls post WW-II would give some insight and innoculate against vapid right wing talking points. What happened is that corporate lackeys/raiders mismanaged the funds, or lost heavily on Wall Street (another source of raiders), and can't pay the defined benefit plans. What happens then? Current retirees get shafted, and current workers get shafted by having to contribute to a much more poorly constructed plan (defined contribution).

    The right always screams about getting rid of Social Security, but is letting corporate America ditch the one solution that would work -- portable defined benefit retirement plans.
    Last edited by Karl; 08-11-12 at 09:43 PM.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm in favor of cutting with attrition. The notion that it's going to hit DHS or the Defense Department the hardest doesn't bother me. Actually, it is actually something that runs counter to the notion we keep hearing that the Republicans won't cut defense spending of various types.
    You've answered your own question -- the Republicans will not let the cuts happen. As they are now casting about on how to ditch sequestration, they'll do the same whenever it comes time to cut DHS/DoD employment levels.

    Bet on it.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by cbaber View Post
    Once again, its not appropriate to use the term lay off when it comes to cuts in the federal workforce. There would not be a dramatic loss of jobs. These people are quitting or retiring not being fired. I do not endorse the complete cutting of major departments [...]
    So, you let your local fire department lose 10% of its jobs due to attrition. In a city with 10 fire stations, that would mean the loss of 1 fire station. Would that be dramatic? It would depend on how close you lived to that 'attritioned' fire station and what kind of emergency arose.

    To cut gov't the best approach may well be to cut entire departments, rather than let the whole operation try to get by on fewer people, and possibly deadwood at that. The only intelligent way to go thru the gov't is line by line... bring in some outfit to analyze every department and every position and every employee. It would take years, but it would be a focused approach that could truely eliminate waste, such as the sole surviving USDA employee, instead of -- as the corporate world usually does -- make everyone work harder for the same pay (actually less as time marches on, due to inflation), with the smart and capable people leaving in disgust and frustration (your attrition) and leaving the deadbeats behind, who faithfully show up just for a paycheck.
    Last edited by Karl; 08-11-12 at 09:57 PM.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Under the Paul Ryan plan, you'd feel the pain many state public employees like myself have been feeling now for the past 4-5 years! No raise since (at least) 2008, a 15% increase in our health insurance premiums, a 30% increase in contributions to our retirement plans. Meanwhile, our state legislators found it totally justifiable to vote themselves a fat pay raise not once but TWICE since 2006.

    Just as public employees were once the target of Conservative budget cuts, it will be federal employee's turn under the Paul Ryan plan. Are you ready for it? Because that's what you'll have to endure if Team Romney/Ryan wins the White House.
    Did you somehow miss the point where I said "I've got no issues with this plan on the surface"?

    Yes. I'm ready to endure it because I believe ultimately it's what's best for this country in the long run and what's most in line with the theory, principles, and philosophy behind what this country founding notions were imho.

    If I completely changed my tune simply because suddenly my view that has been long established and long spoken actually causes me issues then I'd be a blatant and ridiculous hypocrite.

    For all the cries of how greedy Republicans are, the fact that my vote make things a bit harder for me...but better in the long term imho for the United States...due to long held principles on my part is not something that's going to suddenly make me change my vote.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Did you somehow miss the point where I said "I've got no issues with this plan on the surface"?

    Yes. I'm ready to endure it because I believe ultimately it's what's best for this country in the long run and what's most in line with the theory, principles, and philosophy behind what this country founding notions were imho.

    If I completely changed my tune simply because suddenly my view that has been long established and long spoken actually causes me issues then I'd be a blatant and ridiculous hypocrite.

    For all the cries of how greedy Republicans are, the fact that my vote make things a bit harder for me...but better in the long term imho for the United States...due to long held principles on my part is not something that's going to suddenly make me change my vote.
    Gotta give your credit...sticking to your principles is admirable. Should Team Romney win the day, I wish you well. You're gonna need it.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    So, you let your local fire department lose 10% of its jobs due to attrition. In a city with 10 fire stations, that would mean the loss of 1 fire station. Would that be dramatic? It would depend on how close you lived to that 'attritioned' fire station and what kind of emergency arose.

    To cut gov't the best approach may well be to cut entire departments, rather than let the whole operation try to get by on fewer people, and possibly deadwood at that. The only intelligent way to go thru the gov't is line by line... bring in some outfit to analyze every department and every position and every employee. It would take years, but it would be a focused approach that could truely eliminate waste, such as the sole surviving USDA employee, instead of -- as the corporate world usually does -- make everyone work harder for the same pay (actually less as time marches on, due to inflation), with the smart and capable people leaving in disgust and frustration (your attrition) and leaving the deadbeats behind, who faithfully show up just for a paycheck.
    I disagree. Any government "study" is usually a way to spend more money to spend less money. Hiring freeze, payrate freeze, increase pension and healthcare contributions. Let government trim itself by attrition. Its the least painless way to do it and we need to start somewhere.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I disagree. Any government "study" is usually a way to spend more money to spend less money. Hiring freeze, payrate freeze, increase pension and healthcare contributions. Let government trim itself by attrition. Its the least painless way to do it and we need to start somewhere.

    Problems with that...every Police Dept that has substantial decreases in total numbers on the street see large increases in crime...if you want safety you need a balance between the ratio of responders to citizens...when you reduce totals the job just cant get done....now if your willing to accept that...fine...just hope its not you calling 911. Reductions in police never last long and most always are returned...out of need.
    Govt is just like everyones home budget....There are things YOU MUST HAVE...food..police, fire, teachers... that you can only cut so much....there there are things you dont need like cable tv and highspeed internet or the landline or the cellphone....but you cant stop it all...there are necessities.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost, replying to Karl View Post
    I disagree. Any government "study" is usually a way to spend more money to spend less money. [...]
    In that case you've created your own reality, which, in a nutshell, pretty much describes the current state of conservatism.

    As a result, rational debate is fruitless. Have a nice day



    P.S. Congrats on the strawman... another persistent feature of the current state of conservative 'debate'.
    Last edited by Karl; 08-12-12 at 10:19 AM.

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    Re: Paul Ryans Budget Plan Hits Federal Workers

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Problems with that...every Police Dept that has substantial decreases in total numbers on the street see large increases in crime...if you want safety you need a balance between the ratio of responders to citizens...when you reduce totals the job just cant get done....now if your willing to accept that...fine...just hope its not you calling 911. Reductions in police never last long and most always are returned...out of need.
    Govt is just like everyones home budget....There are things YOU MUST HAVE...food..police, fire, teachers... that you can only cut so much....there there are things you dont need like cable tv and highspeed internet or the landline or the cellphone....but you cant stop it all...there are necessities.
    Today's right is interested neither in rational thought nor nuance... they always revert to the most base position that requires the minimum thought possible. In this instance it's cut cut cut, not think think think. Or, as we saw at the Ryan introduction last Saturday, USA USA USA. Bellicose chauvinism has historically always had a good outcome....
    Last edited by Karl; 08-12-12 at 10:26 AM.

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