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Thread: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

  1. #51
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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    The Senate bill that extends the lower brackets up tomorrow will fail. The House bill that extends all brackets will pass next week and the Senate will fail to vote on it. This ‘taxmagetton’ will continue until late December (just like last time) and the BTCs will get extended entirely. The economy and UE will continue flounder due to the uncertainty. IF the BTCs are not extended at all again, the economy and UE cease the flounder and go into a full nosedive with another recession next year. Be careful what you wish for. JMHO...
    I predicted incorrectly. The Senate passed extending the middle class tax cuts thusly raising rates on those making above $250k/$200k and LTCGs from 15% to 20%...guess we'll see what the House does now...
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I am not too concerned about the smaller small businesses....they will survive. Well the smart ones will...
    When we had our retirement house built, I got a good look at several small businesses, the sub-contractors. Young men barely into thier 30's doing so well that they drive $50,000 trucks pulling equally expensive boats. Hard times hit, the boat has to go but nobody can afford it.
    One of my dentists in times past did the same thing, plus....a new corvette and a new girl by his side....alimony and child support to the old girl. Everyone thinks getting rich quickly is the new standard. I am short on sympathy.
    Does anybody else here remember back in the 70's there were news magazine segments on TV about those who could no longer afford private schools, luxury yachts, and overseas vacations? seems that some of our upper middle class were whining because they had to cut back to only 2 luxury cars in the driveway. Those people actually had NO CLUE how the rest of us lived.
    All those things that they stood to lose, I never wanted. The more things you have, the more stress you have.
    We can afford the big toys now, still don't have them.
    Things are similar now, but I still short on sympathy for the rich and near rich and the wannabe rich. The stress just isn't worth it....
    I fully expect our tax rates will go up next year, no matter who wins, and our income is no where near $250K. Ours is about half that, but all we own is paid for. No stress on this old dude....
    The wannabe rich tend to be the rest of America who rents lifestyle, to appear rich.
    Very few of us actually give a crap about positive household finances.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #53
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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    A compromise has passed the senate. Extend the Bush Tax cuts for Americans making under $250,000 and raise taxes on the rest. But unfortunately it will bed DOA once it reaches the house.
    Democratic tax plan approved by Senate - Seung Min Kim - POLITICO.com


  4. #54
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    A compromise has passed the senate. Extend the Bush Tax cuts for Americans making under $250,000 and raise taxes on the rest. But unfortunately it will bed DOA once it reaches the house.
    Democratic tax plan approved by Senate - Seung Min Kim - POLITICO.com
    It should die=the rich already pay too much of the tax burden and the dems plan is to keep buying the votes of the masses by telling them that the rich will fund what they want.

    Why are the libs so intent on keeping tax cuts for the masses and raising it on those who pay 50% of the taxes? Its all about votes. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOUND FISCAL PRINCIPLES OR ECONOMICS

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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    It should die=the rich already pay too much of the tax burden and the dems plan is to keep buying the votes of the masses by telling them that the rich will fund what they want.

    Why are the libs so intent on keeping tax cuts for the masses and raising it on those who pay 50% of the taxes? Its all about votes. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOUND FISCAL PRINCIPLES OR ECONOMICS

    Of course not...

    Just another broken record...


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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post

    Of course not...

    Just another broken record...

    if tax cuts are so good for someone making 198K a year why is Obama so hell bent on jacking up taxes on someone who makes 200 or 300K a year

    why is 200K the cut off

    is there any sanity to that?

  7. #57
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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    A compromise has passed the senate. Extend the Bush Tax cuts for Americans making under $250,000 and raise taxes on the rest. But unfortunately it will bed DOA once it reaches the house.
    Democratic tax plan approved by Senate - Seung Min Kim - POLITICO.com
    Technically since the Constitution calls for taxation/budgetary issues to ORIGINATE in the House it was/is DOA before it reaches the House. Essentially both the Republican bill AND the Democrats bill were mere posturing for their prospective constituants prior to elections...nothing more...

    As to your 'compromise', I missed that. The only compromise I can realize is they said if you allow a vote on 'ours' we will allow a vote on 'yours'. Compromise? I guess...
    Last edited by Dickieboy; 07-25-12 at 11:47 PM.
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

  8. #58
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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    oops i foprgot you ignored a massive gdp drop due to clintons dot com bubble bursting,and heavily increased revenue fro the dot com bubble building,but hey you wont include they or aknowledge it,cuz it hurts your cause unless its for claiming taxes raise revenue.

    just the fact your own source shows revenue dropping before bush tax cuts were encated and rising after they were throws your entire argument out the window.TRY AGAIN>




    Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP

    as this source shows revenue as a percentage of gdp fluctuates with gdp and not rates,or else we would have lost revenue going from 94% tax on the rich to 28% under reagan,but the exact opposite occurred,your math only works against weak minded who are too incompetent to study imperical data and averages across decades.
    Interesting series of arguments if your premise was correct and you read your charts correctly. Given each are a fail, let's reset.

    1) there was no 'massive gdp drop due to clinton's dot com bubble bursting' Where is it. The numbers do not reflect any year over year gdp drop, just a slowing of growth. I even added an additional year of tax receipts and gdp to my chart so that it shows results from Oct 1, 1998 (the beginning of fiscal year 1999) through Sept 30 2009. The .com bubble began to burst in April 2000 once the market realized the absurd valuations of stocks that could lead to AOL buying Time/Warner with its paper. So the data per the table below should give coverage on both sides of the event... note no year over year down tick in gdp.

    2) The Bush tax cuts directly affected only individual income tax rates. Using only the chart you provided (Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP) you will note the individual income tax receipts as a percentage of GDP dropped by 10ish% before the tax cuts (10.2 for fiscal year 2000, ending 9/30/200) to 7-8%. They dropped a solid 2 percentage points, never recovering. Moreover, aggregate income tax collections fell 19.6% and took 6 years to return to 2000 levels growing a much slower rate than GDP growth.

    Now, if the notion that tax cuts lead to tax revenue growth were true, than aggregate collections should grow faster than the GDP rate under the notion that in a more prosperous economy more people and businesses are paying taxes at a higher effective rate than in a less prosperous economy. However, if tax cuts are just tax cuts or the economic impact is nominal at best, than tax receipts lag GDP growth, which is exactly what happened with the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003.

    So back to your original point:

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    fun fact,raising the taxes on the rich wont raise enough money for anything,infact estimates by cbo are based off of no variables existing,this is why i hate cbo as it has been wrong 98% of the time.

    in actuallity the tax costs will cost next to nothing across the board or break even,and going by gdp growth from the tax cuts to now,and with % of gdp as income tax staying fairly constant,the tax cuts didnt cost a dime,this is liberals arguing that you cant use household finances for economies,but using household finances to calculate tax cuts,and ignoring all variables,as variables are bad in liberal math.
    Kindly show us in your chart ( (Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP) where you see that "...% of gdp as income tax staying fairly constant..."? Again, in columns 1 or 1 and 2, which show individual and corporate income taxes as a function of GDP, well I sure don't see it. In fact, everything I see says the opposite.... You might want to study your "imperical data" a bit closer next time.

    Now, we often hear people the Cons cite that total receipts increased after the 2001/03 tax cuts. It is true that total revenue actual grew faster than income tax revenue, but this is classic how to lie with statistics as 40% of total revenue is FICA (payroll taxes), which by design, is going to grow year over year, even in a weak economy. Citing this is falling into the lie that Cons have been selling. The reality is that 2001 and 2003 tax cuts were largely masked by FICA grow, which in essence, meant we used FICA to fund the tax cuts.

    My argument is strictly with the last 10 years. The tax cuts and tax restructurings (not the same thing) of the 1980's had many more complicating factors. Happy to discuss that merits of that another, though I have not studied that as closely as the lie that the Bush tax cuts were revenue neutral. Although tax cuts in certain circumstances and when properly directed can be a effective stimulus, the failure of the Bush cuts dispels the notion that they work when broadly distributed or every time.
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    Last edited by upsideguy; 07-26-12 at 02:13 AM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    That is pretty much what happened in Chile in 1973.
    And our war to prevent the Vietnamese from voting for communism.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And our war to prevent the Vietnamese from voting for communism.
    Hey, you're way off base! Stop being a revisionist! That was a war to defend Vietnam from the Vietnamese people! What could be more heroic?

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