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Showdown over Bush tax cuts Wednesday

The Senate bill that extends the lower brackets up tomorrow will fail. The House bill that extends all brackets will pass next week and the Senate will fail to vote on it. This ‘taxmagetton’ will continue until late December (just like last time) and the BTCs will get extended entirely. The economy and UE will continue flounder due to the uncertainty. IF the BTCs are not extended at all again, the economy and UE cease the flounder and go into a full nosedive with another recession next year. Be careful what you wish for. JMHO...:mrgreen:

I predicted incorrectly. The Senate passed extending the middle class tax cuts thusly raising rates on those making above $250k/$200k and LTCGs from 15% to 20%...guess we'll see what the House does now...
 
I am not too concerned about the smaller small businesses....they will survive. Well the smart ones will...
When we had our retirement house built, I got a good look at several small businesses, the sub-contractors. Young men barely into thier 30's doing so well that they drive $50,000 trucks pulling equally expensive boats. Hard times hit, the boat has to go but nobody can afford it.
One of my dentists in times past did the same thing, plus....a new corvette and a new girl by his side....alimony and child support to the old girl. Everyone thinks getting rich quickly is the new standard. I am short on sympathy.
Does anybody else here remember back in the 70's there were news magazine segments on TV about those who could no longer afford private schools, luxury yachts, and overseas vacations? seems that some of our upper middle class were whining because they had to cut back to only 2 luxury cars in the driveway. Those people actually had NO CLUE how the rest of us lived.
All those things that they stood to lose, I never wanted. The more things you have, the more stress you have.
We can afford the big toys now, still don't have them.
Things are similar now, but I still short on sympathy for the rich and near rich and the wannabe rich. The stress just isn't worth it....
I fully expect our tax rates will go up next year, no matter who wins, and our income is no where near $250K. Ours is about half that, but all we own is paid for. No stress on this old dude....

The wannabe rich tend to be the rest of America who rents lifestyle, to appear rich.
Very few of us actually give a crap about positive household finances.
 
A compromise has passed the senate. Extend the Bush Tax cuts for Americans making under $250,000 and raise taxes on the rest. But unfortunately it will bed DOA once it reaches the house.
Democratic tax plan approved by Senate - Seung Min Kim - POLITICO.com

It should die=the rich already pay too much of the tax burden and the dems plan is to keep buying the votes of the masses by telling them that the rich will fund what they want.

Why are the libs so intent on keeping tax cuts for the masses and raising it on those who pay 50% of the taxes? Its all about votes. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOUND FISCAL PRINCIPLES OR ECONOMICS
 
It should die=the rich already pay too much of the tax burden and the dems plan is to keep buying the votes of the masses by telling them that the rich will fund what they want.

Why are the libs so intent on keeping tax cuts for the masses and raising it on those who pay 50% of the taxes? Its all about votes. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOUND FISCAL PRINCIPLES OR ECONOMICS

:roll:
Of course not...

Just another broken record...
 
:roll:
Of course not...

Just another broken record...


if tax cuts are so good for someone making 198K a year why is Obama so hell bent on jacking up taxes on someone who makes 200 or 300K a year

why is 200K the cut off

is there any sanity to that?
 
A compromise has passed the senate. Extend the Bush Tax cuts for Americans making under $250,000 and raise taxes on the rest. But unfortunately it will bed DOA once it reaches the house.
Democratic tax plan approved by Senate - Seung Min Kim - POLITICO.com

Technically since the Constitution calls for taxation/budgetary issues to ORIGINATE in the House it was/is DOA before it reaches the House. Essentially both the Republican bill AND the Democrats bill were mere posturing for their prospective constituants prior to elections...nothing more...

As to your 'compromise', I missed that. The only compromise I can realize is they said if you allow a vote on 'ours' we will allow a vote on 'yours'. Compromise? I guess...:roll:
 
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oops i foprgot you ignored a massive gdp drop due to clintons dot com bubble bursting,and heavily increased revenue fro the dot com bubble building,but hey you wont include they or aknowledge it,cuz it hurts your cause unless its for claiming taxes raise revenue.

just the fact your own source shows revenue dropping before bush tax cuts were encated and rising after they were throws your entire argument out the window.TRY AGAIN>




Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP

as this source shows revenue as a percentage of gdp fluctuates with gdp and not rates,or else we would have lost revenue going from 94% tax on the rich to 28% under reagan,but the exact opposite occurred,your math only works against weak minded who are too incompetent to study imperical data and averages across decades.

Interesting series of arguments if your premise was correct and you read your charts correctly. Given each are a fail, let's reset.

1) there was no 'massive gdp drop due to clinton's dot com bubble bursting' Where is it. The numbers do not reflect any year over year gdp drop, just a slowing of growth. I even added an additional year of tax receipts and gdp to my chart so that it shows results from Oct 1, 1998 (the beginning of fiscal year 1999) through Sept 30 2009. The .com bubble began to burst in April 2000 once the market realized the absurd valuations of stocks that could lead to AOL buying Time/Warner with its paper. So the data per the table below should give coverage on both sides of the event... note no year over year down tick in gdp.

2) The Bush tax cuts directly affected only individual income tax rates. Using only the chart you provided (Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP) you will note the individual income tax receipts as a percentage of GDP dropped by 10ish% before the tax cuts (10.2 for fiscal year 2000, ending 9/30/200) to 7-8%. They dropped a solid 2 percentage points, never recovering. Moreover, aggregate income tax collections fell 19.6% and took 6 years to return to 2000 levels growing a much slower rate than GDP growth.

Now, if the notion that tax cuts lead to tax revenue growth were true, than aggregate collections should grow faster than the GDP rate under the notion that in a more prosperous economy more people and businesses are paying taxes at a higher effective rate than in a less prosperous economy. However, if tax cuts are just tax cuts or the economic impact is nominal at best, than tax receipts lag GDP growth, which is exactly what happened with the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003.

So back to your original point:

fun fact,raising the taxes on the rich wont raise enough money for anything,infact estimates by cbo are based off of no variables existing,this is why i hate cbo as it has been wrong 98% of the time.

in actuallity the tax costs will cost next to nothing across the board or break even,and going by gdp growth from the tax cuts to now,and with % of gdp as income tax staying fairly constant,the tax cuts didnt cost a dime,this is liberals arguing that you cant use household finances for economies,but using household finances to calculate tax cuts,and ignoring all variables,as variables are bad in liberal math.

Kindly show us in your chart ( (Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP) where you see that "...% of gdp as income tax staying fairly constant..."? Again, in columns 1 or 1 and 2, which show individual and corporate income taxes as a function of GDP, well I sure don't see it. In fact, everything I see says the opposite.... You might want to study your "imperical data" a bit closer next time.

Now, we often hear people the Cons cite that total receipts increased after the 2001/03 tax cuts. It is true that total revenue actual grew faster than income tax revenue, but this is classic how to lie with statistics as 40% of total revenue is FICA (payroll taxes), which by design, is going to grow year over year, even in a weak economy. Citing this is falling into the lie that Cons have been selling. The reality is that 2001 and 2003 tax cuts were largely masked by FICA grow, which in essence, meant we used FICA to fund the tax cuts.

My argument is strictly with the last 10 years. The tax cuts and tax restructurings (not the same thing) of the 1980's had many more complicating factors. Happy to discuss that merits of that another, though I have not studied that as closely as the lie that the Bush tax cuts were revenue neutral. Although tax cuts in certain circumstances and when properly directed can be a effective stimulus, the failure of the Bush cuts dispels the notion that they work when broadly distributed or every time.
 

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And our war to prevent the Vietnamese from voting for communism.

Hey, you're way off base! Stop being a revisionist! That was a war to defend Vietnam from the Vietnamese people! What could be more heroic?
 
If people were serious about cutting the debt they would let the tax cuts expire and cut spending. But that doesn't get people elected, so what they should do is let them expire, but offer a different tax cut to be signed on Jan 1, 2013 that is inbetween the Bush tax cuts and the normal tax levels.

What your saying is we need bipartanship and YOU ARE RIGHT...but the far right Grover Norquists with thier no tax ever lists will not let that happen.
EVERYONE says thats the way to go that has half a brain...The simpson boles commission the cbo....think tanks....but the FAR RIGHT has refused to even come to the table....they want the middle class, public workers and seniors to pay down the debt so they can get another tax cut A HUGE tax cut....< Paul Ryan>
 
[h=1]Senate OKs Dem tax-cut bill in showdown with GOP[/h]
"Democrats pushed a yearlong extension of tax cuts for all but the highest-earning Americans through the Senate on Wednesday, giving Democrats a significant political victory on a measure that is fated to go no further in Congress.

Senators approved the Democratic bill by a near party-line 51-48 vote, with Vice President Biden presiding over the chamber in case his vote was needed to break a tie. Minutes earlier, lawmakers voted 54-45 to kill a rival Republican package that would have included the best-off in the tax reductions."

"The question is, who are you fighting for," Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., said before the vote. "Are you fighting for the people who make a billion dollars a year? That's who the Republicans are fighting for, and they get so emotional about it. Or are you fighting for the middle class, the heart and soul of America."

Senate OKs Dem tax-cut bill in showdown with GOP
 
[h=1]Senate OKs Dem tax-cut bill in showdown with GOP[/h]
"Democrats pushed a yearlong extension of tax cuts for all but the highest-earning Americans through the Senate on Wednesday, giving Democrats a significant political victory on a measure that is fated to go no further in Congress.

Senators approved the Democratic bill by a near party-line 51-48 vote, with Vice President Biden presiding over the chamber in case his vote was needed to break a tie. Minutes earlier, lawmakers voted 54-45 to kill a rival Republican package that would have included the best-off in the tax reductions."

"The question is, who are you fighting for," Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., said before the vote. "Are you fighting for the people who make a billion dollars a year? That's who the Republicans are fighting for, and they get so emotional about it. Or are you fighting for the middle class, the heart and soul of America."

Senate OKs Dem tax-cut bill in showdown with GOP

its fun watching a rich rich spoiled princess like Boxer, whose millionaire husband help buy her a senate seat appealing to class warfare is hilarious. she knows she can make her husband so much more money in office so that is why she spews such idiocy

and why do those assholes talk about a few billionaires when their tax schemes are targeting someone making 200K a year and up-hardly rich in places like San Francisco
 
its fun watching a rich rich spoiled princess like Boxer, whose millionaire husband help buy her a senate seat appealing to class warfare is hilarious. she knows she can make her husband so much more money in office so that is why she spews such idiocy

and why do those assholes talk about a few billionaires when their tax schemes are targeting someone making 200K a year and up-hardly rich in places like San Francisco

Thanks for the far right class warfare rhetoric! It helps show out of touch you are with the facts:

"only 17.8% of all U.S. households make more than $118,200 a year. Only 2.67% make more than $200,000. The fact that only 34% make more than $65,000 is astounding given how expensive other cost of living items have gotten over the past decade. That is why the middle class is feeling squeezed from all different sides."

How much does the Average American Make? Breaking Down the U.S. Household Income Numbers.


"In fact, tax cuts for the middle class and poor stimulate the economy, but tax cuts for the wealthy hurt the economy."


"Bruce Bartlett, a Republican political appointee and domestic policy advisor to Ronald Reagan, points out that:

Taxes were cut in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006.

It would have been one thing if the Bush tax cuts had at least bought the country a higher rate of economic growth, even temporarily. They did not. Real G.D.P. growth peaked at just 3.6 percent in 2004 before fading rapidly. Even before the crisis hit, real G.D.P. was growing less than 2 percent a year…

According to a recent C.B.O. report, they reduced revenue by at least $2.9 trillion below what it otherwise would have been between 2001 and 2011. Slower-than-expected growth reduced revenue by another $3.5 trillion.

Spending was $5.6 trillion higher than the C.B.O. anticipated for a total fiscal turnaround of $12 trillion. That is how a $6 trillion projected surplus turned into a cumulative deficit of $6 trillion."

Tax Cuts for the Middle Class and Poor STIMULATE The Economy, But Tax Cuts for the Wealthy HURT The Economy - Washington's Blog
 
if tax cuts are so good for someone making 198K a year why is Obama so hell bent on jacking up taxes on someone who makes 200 or 300K a year

why is 200K the cut off

is there any sanity to that?

Perfect amount of sanity to that. Raise more revenue for the government.
 
It should die=the rich already pay too much of the tax burden and the dems plan is to keep buying the votes of the masses by telling them that the rich will fund what they want.

Why are the libs so intent on keeping tax cuts for the masses and raising it on those who pay 50% of the taxes? Its all about votes. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOUND FISCAL PRINCIPLES OR ECONOMICS

Libs buy votes from the poor, by promising them government aid, with tax money taken from the upper classes. The poor think they deserve it, despite not making much effort to deserve it.
Cons buy votes from the rich, by promising them low taxes, with the budget shortfalls being paid for by the lower classes.
Not entirely sure why the rich think they deserve low taxes. It's not like they will spend enough to help move the economy forward.
all that BS about trickle down and the rich creating jobs is over hyped....the impact of both combined is still minimal...
 
murder is not implied with dictators or their lackeys are put down

I would have thought you had learned the definition of MURDER in that law school you claim you went to. Killing a dictator or their lackeys can still be murder. Of course, any government official who tells you to do something that you object to would most likely qualify in your mind as a dictator and thus earn the fate you would like to dish out for them.
 
Libs buy votes from the poor, by promising them government aid, with tax money taken from the upper classes. The poor think they deserve it, despite not making much effort to deserve it.
Cons buy votes from the rich, by promising them low taxes, with the budget shortfalls being paid for by the lower classes.
Not entirely sure why the rich think they deserve low taxes. It's not like they will spend enough to help move the economy forward.
all that BS about trickle down and the rich creating jobs is over hyped....the impact of both combined is still minimal...

We do have a progressive tax system, the rich do pay more, in fact they pay the most of anyone. Half of the people in the US do not pay any federal income taxes. One could ask why do half of the people that don't pay a dime in federal taxes feel they deserve to not pay a dime.
 
Washington still has a spending problem and living outside its means. Lets just say the Bush tax cuts goes away for those making over
250K. I will bet our national debt will continue to rise.

Until Congress and President (current or future), gets the countries fiscal house in order, I am not sure they deserve anymore of our money. Balance the budget. Show a plan to reduce the deficit. Tell us what they plan to do with the increased revenue, if given. We need to hold our elected officials acountable.

I do believe our tax code needs to be overhauled. But so does the way Washington develps a national budget. It is way broken.
 
Washington still has a spending problem and living outside its means. Lets just say the Bush tax cuts goes away for those making over
250K. I will bet our national debt will continue to rise.



Fact Check: Industry-Financed Study Gets President’s Tax Cuts Wrong

"Below is an analysis by Jason Furman, Principal Deputy Director of the National Economic Council, highlighting the major flaws, errors and misleading statements in the study:

* The study fallaciously assumes that the tax cuts are used to finance additional spending, ignoring the benefits of what the President actually proposed which was to use the revenue as part of a balanced plan to reduce the deficit and stabilize the debt. The President has proposed to let the high-income tax cuts expire and use the resulting $1 trillion in savings (over 10 years) as part of a balanced plan to reduce deficits and debt and put the nation on a sustainable fiscal course that includes $2.50 of spending cuts for every $1.00 of revenue."

Fact Check: Industry-Financed Study Gets President
 
Fact Check: Industry-Financed Study Gets President’s Tax Cuts Wrong

"Below is an analysis by Jason Furman, Principal Deputy Director of the National Economic Council, highlighting the major flaws, errors and misleading statements in the study:

* The study fallaciously assumes that the tax cuts are used to finance additional spending, ignoring the benefits of what the President actually proposed which was to use the revenue as part of a balanced plan to reduce the deficit and stabilize the debt. The President has proposed to let the high-income tax cuts expire and use the resulting $1 trillion in savings (over 10 years) as part of a balanced plan to reduce deficits and debt and put the nation on a sustainable fiscal course that includes $2.50 of spending cuts for every $1.00 of revenue."

Fact Check: Industry-Financed Study Gets President

Quote:
"The President has proposed to let the high-income tax cuts expire and use the resulting $1 trillion in savings (over 10 years) as part of a balanced plan to reduce deficits and debt and put the nation on a sustainable fiscal course that includes $2.50 of spending cuts for every $1.00 of revenue."

1 trillion in saving over 10 yrs, now that money Obama will burn up in one year, and then some. He raised the national debt by 6 trillion in just 4 yrs.

Now to the cuts, 2.5 to 1 in spending cuts. What spending cuts?
 
Quote:
"The President has proposed to let the high-income tax cuts expire and use the resulting $1 trillion in savings (over 10 years) as part of a balanced plan to reduce deficits and debt and put the nation on a sustainable fiscal course that includes $2.50 of spending cuts for every $1.00 of revenue."

1 trillion in saving over 10 yrs, now that money Obama will burn up in one year, and then some. He raised the national debt by 6 trillion in just 4 yrs.

Now to the cuts, 2.5 to 1 in spending cuts. What spending cuts?

"The President has proposed to let the high-income tax cuts expire and use the resulting $1 trillion in savings (over 10 years) as part of a balanced plan to reduce deficits and debt and put the nation on a sustainable fiscal course that includes $2.50 of spending cuts for every $1.00 of revenue."

Cutting wasteful spending in federal programs like our excessive military spending that we have been spending almost as much as the rest of the world combined. Ending the Iraq war alone, which Romney argued against ending, saves us billions each month.
 
Fact Check: Industry-Financed Study Gets President’s Tax Cuts Wrong

"Below is an analysis by Jason Furman, Principal Deputy Director of the National Economic Council, highlighting the major flaws, errors and misleading statements in the study:

* The study fallaciously assumes that the tax cuts are used to finance additional spending, ignoring the benefits of what the President actually proposed which was to use the revenue as part of a balanced plan to reduce the deficit and stabilize the debt. The President has proposed to let the high-income tax cuts expire and use the resulting $1 trillion in savings (over 10 years) as part of a balanced plan to reduce deficits and debt and put the nation on a sustainable fiscal course that includes $2.50 of spending cuts for every $1.00 of revenue."

Fact Check: Industry-Financed Study Gets President

I am aware of factcheck. I gave an opinion.
I am aware of the Presidents proposal. When was the last time Congress passed actually what the President Budget wanted? Most budgets from the President are DOA. With the House and Senate controlled by two different parties, things are in a gridlock.

What are the odds of Obama's budget plan be passed by the House and Senate without changes?
Seems each year our debt goes up.
 
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Thanks for the far right class warfare rhetoric! It helps show out of touch you are with the facts:

"only 17.8% of all U.S. households make more than $118,200 a year. Only 2.67% make more than $200,000. The fact that only 34% make more than $65,000 is astounding given how expensive other cost of living items have gotten over the past decade. That is why the middle class is feeling squeezed from all different sides."

How much does the Average American Make? Breaking Down the U.S. Household Income Numbers.


"In fact, tax cuts for the middle class and poor stimulate the economy, but tax cuts for the wealthy hurt the economy."


"Bruce Bartlett, a Republican political appointee and domestic policy advisor to Ronald Reagan, points out that:

Taxes were cut in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006.

It would have been one thing if the Bush tax cuts had at least bought the country a higher rate of economic growth, even temporarily. They did not. Real G.D.P. growth peaked at just 3.6 percent in 2004 before fading rapidly. Even before the crisis hit, real G.D.P. was growing less than 2 percent a year…

According to a recent C.B.O. report, they reduced revenue by at least $2.9 trillion below what it otherwise would have been between 2001 and 2011. Slower-than-expected growth reduced revenue by another $3.5 trillion.

Spending was $5.6 trillion higher than the C.B.O. anticipated for a total fiscal turnaround of $12 trillion. That is how a $6 trillion projected surplus turned into a cumulative deficit of $6 trillion."

Tax Cuts for the Middle Class and Poor STIMULATE The Economy, But Tax Cuts for the Wealthy HURT The Economy - Washington's Blog

your appeals to the mediocrity is unpersuasive.

and tell me why 200K is a proper delineation?
 
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