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Thread: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Ok, lets go for it. If we continue supporting Liberal Policies, we are heading that way anyways, so lets get it done and over with. If that is what it takes to finally break people of the entitlement habit and rid us of all these socialistic policies and bs, I say go for it. In the end, we will be stronger and better for it.
    Much of the "liberal policies" you're talking about are damage control for a failed conservative trying to fight a two-front war while lowering taxes. If you've got a problem you should fix that conservative attitude first before blaming all your problems on someone else.


    As for letting it fail - that was the opinion of some people three years ago when the economy crashed. Europe took that route and reduced government spending and look at the backlash it got them. We made the right call including balling out the banks, much as I hated that decision.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-06-12 at 10:30 AM.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    ok, I won't change my mind but we can take a few years to balance the budget.
    Which is exactly what the post you responded to said:
    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    The budget will not / can not be balanced for years.... even the most optimistic view of the Paul Ryan budget has us 5 years away from balance....
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-06-12 at 10:22 AM.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Much of the "liberal policies" you're talking about are damage control for a failed conservative trying to fight a two-front war while lowering taxes. If you've got a problem you should fix that conservative attitude first before blaming all your problems on someone else.


    As for letting it fail - that was the opinion of some people three years ago when the economy crashed. Europe took that route and reduced government spending and look at the backlash it got them. We made the right call including balling out the banks, much as I hated that decision.
    You ignore reality with the bank "bailouts" for the mortgage mess, when not considering the only REAL alternmative which was that the banks would have legally USED the Freddie and Fannie backed mortgage "insurance" costing up to $5 TRILLION in tax money. The gov't PRETENDED to be bailing out the "private" banks but, in reality, was simply avoiding paying MANY TIMES more in gov't backed motgage insurance claims.

    97% of All U.S. Mortgages are Backed by the Government | The Big Picture

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...niefreddie.pdf
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You ignore reality with the bank "bailouts" for the mortgage mess, when not considering the only REAL alternmative which was that the banks would have legally USED the Freddie and Fannie backed mortgage "insurance" costing up to $5 TRILLION in tax money. The gov't PRETENDED to be bailing out the "private" banks but, in reality, was simply avoiding paying MANY TIMES more in gov't backed motgage insurance claims.

    97% of All U.S. Mortgages are Backed by the Government | The Big Picture

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...niefreddie.pdf
    Lacking an implicit federal guarantee, private-label issuers could not compete effectively with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for conforming mortgages. Instead, they concentrated on nonconforming mortgages—loans that generally were not eligible for guarantees by the GSEs because they were too large (jumbo mortgages) or too risky (Alt-A or subprime mortgages). By 1997, private-label securities accounted for nearly 25 percent of new MBSs issued, and by their peak, in 2005 and 2006, they made up 55 percent of new issues (see Figure 1-2).
    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...niefreddie.pdf

    The banks have only themselves to blame on the bubble and the poor securities they generated.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-06-12 at 12:21 PM.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Much of the "liberal policies" you're talking about are damage control for a failed conservative trying to fight a two-front war while lowering taxes. If you've got a problem you should fix that conservative attitude first before blaming all your problems on someone else.


    As for letting it fail - that was the opinion of some people three years ago when the economy crashed. Europe took that route and reduced government spending and look at the backlash it got them. We made the right call including balling out the banks, much as I hated that decision.
    I am not so short sighted that I was referring to the current administration. No, policies like welfare go back to the 1960s and have their roots in the 1930s. Our failing approach to education also didn't just start, it has been going on for decades. The governments assault upon the healthcare system started somewhere around the 1970s. The policies that caused the housing bubble and failure of that bubble go back to the 1990s. Enviromental policies that have cost us jobs and industry go back to the 1960s and labor laws go back even further. Debt spending except during time of declared war goes back also to around the 1960s. Basing the economy on credit spending does have it's start during the 1980s or earlier but didn't really become common place until the 1990s. The whole economic "boom" under Clinton was based upon credit spending, not real income/spending and eventually, it had to crash.

    Not doing the bailouts would of crashed the credit industry, not that we are currently experiencing is that far off of the whole house of cards coming down. Millions of Americans were hurt anyways, but if we allowed collapse, at least those running industry and scalping people with credit would of felt far more effects from it. By trying to rebuild the economy with credit spending, we are just rebuilding the same house of cards so it can callapse on us again in the future. Total crash of the credit industry would of forced people into real spending based upon what they actually had at the time, a much firmer foundation than credit.

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...niefreddie.pdf

    The banks have only themselves to blame on the bubble and the poor securities they generated.
    All of which did start with Fannie/Freddie. A law was passed in the 1990s to seek out means and to encourage low-income home ownership which authorised Fannie/Freddie to enter the sup-prime lending market in housing. Zero down payment loans and Interest Only loans started as a result of this government sponsored policy. Variable interest loans existed prior to this, but when coupled to the new loan programs, it was catistrophic.

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...niefreddie.pdf

    The banks have only themselves to blame on the bubble and the poor securities they generated.
    LOL. Look at where the TARP money REALLY went and then explain why it was a MOSTLY "private" problem, many private banks were acyually FORCED to take TARP money for "appearances". If the banks were "to blame" then why did congress hop to and DEMAND that they take money? Many were quite upset at the accusation and INITIALLY refused to play along. Hmm...

    Bailout List: Banks, Auto Companies, and More | Eye on the Bailout | ProPublica

    http://www.investorplace.com/2012/05...-are-they-now/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1335006.html
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 08-06-12 at 01:16 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    All of which did start with Fannie/Freddie. A law was passed in the 1990s to seek out means and to encourage low-income home ownership which authorised Fannie/Freddie to enter the sup-prime lending market in housing. Zero down payment loans and Interest Only loans started as a result of this government sponsored policy. Variable interest loans existed prior to this, but when coupled to the new loan programs, it was catistrophic.
    Which "law" was that???

    There were strict guidelines on Freddie/Fannie loans, which the banks often failed to follow during the 00's. The problem is the banks tried to get into a section of the market that was strictly government (and should have remained strictly government) and they failed terribly. That coupled with loose government oversight was more than enough to tank an entire industry.



    Ed:
    And if the investment banks had not been allowed to merge with (what I think of as) the "traditional banks" then I would have said let the damn speculators fry on Wall St.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-06-12 at 01:35 PM.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    LOL. Look at where the TARP money REALLY went and then explain why it was a MOSTLY "private" problem, many private banks were acyually FORCED to take TARP money for "appearances". If the banks were "to blame" then why did congress hop to and DEMAND that they take money? Many were quite upset at the accusation and INITIALLY refused to play along. Hmm...

    Bailout List: Banks, Auto Companies, and More | Eye on the Bailout | ProPublica

    2008 TARP Funds -- Where Are They Now? | InvestorPlace

    Banks Repaid Fed Bailout With Other Fed Money: Government Report
    I am not going to re-hash this whole argument about what happened - I've been through it too many times to count here, elsewhere, and IRL. There are plenty of people in jail, there were plenty of corporate fines paid, and plenty of corporate punishments issued from plea bargaining to show where the main fault lies.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I am not going to re-hash this whole argument about what happened - I've been through it too many times to count here, elsewhere, and IRL. There are plenty of people in jail, there were plenty of corporate fines paid, and plenty of corporate punishments issued from plea bargaining to show where the main fault lies.
    Ok, I made a mistake. It was all started with the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977. However it was the Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992 that set specific goals of low-income and underserved housing areas and entered Freddie and Fannie into increased sub-prime lending.

    From File:Median and Average Sales Prices of New Homes Sold in United States 1963-2008 annual.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    800px-Median_and_Average_Sales_Prices_of_New_Homes_Sold_in_United_States_1963-2008_annual.jpg

    You can see the start of the bubble back in 1992.

    From Alan Greenspan News - The New York Times

    He pointed out that the Fed had warned about subprime lending and low-down-payment mortgages in 1999, and again in 2001. And he argued that if the Fed had tried to slow the housing market amid a "fairly broad consensus" about encouraging homeownership, "the Congress would have clamped down on us."

    Yes, Bush and Republicans did take actions that exacerbated the problem, but they did not start them and considering the popular support for home ownership, could they have taken action to stem the tide and still survived politically? I don't think so, they were riding a train that was already going to crash and couldn't get it onto another rail.

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