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Thread: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

  1. #671
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    I presented an informed, well documented "picture" of the erosion of U.S. economy / society. You cannot even consider the trend is the result of politically driven actions financed by a determined and increasingly brazen, economic elite. The trends of wealth concentration here can easily be compared to more equitable and stable trends in other post industrial countries.

    Wealth concentration trend is the problem, not welfare queens or "tax and spend liberals." A wiser man than I observed about you and your ilk:
    the problem that runs through your statements is basically a refusal to think in either historical or social-system terms. instead, the arguments are moralistic, erasing anything analytic (at all if you read your posts carefully) and replacing analysis with a series of adjectives attached to the noun "big brother"--the definition of which i have never been sure that many of you actually knows--what is clear is that "big brother" means functionally "empty space onto which i project whatever i want."

    the adjective pile-up starts with the first sentence of the post:

    x is defined by the predicate "they have no idea where wealth comes from."
    and proceeds to heap other such attribute up one after the other.

    by the third paragraph, it is clear that we are not talking about socialist at all, but we are in fact talking about who you imagine those on the other side of your POV to be--first negatively---"I'm sure I"m part of posts little hit group" then by way of inversion--"president for life post..."

    and so on.

    so a cynical fellow might say that given there is no content to the category
    big brother in TurtleDude's post above, that it is negative space he fills with projections, and that most of those projections one way or another are about projections concerning anyone of a more progressive POV, whom he apparently sees as some kind of inflatable stalin doll (even that seems to grant too much content to the term "big brother" as it functions above) that the "analysis" is mostly a hysterical ad hominem--ad hominem in that it is a personal attack on progressives, hysterical in that the post manages to collapse make-believe progressive into a bigger make-believe category "big brother".

    hedging this nonsense round, you have a very simple and simplistic claim repeated lots of times: a "big brother" is someone who wants to take TurtleDude's money. because TurtleDude defines himself as the embodiment of all things virtuous and holy--the last term because it is pretty obvious that money is sacred---then it follows that a "big brother"--as an abstraction the only content of which that is not based in ad hominem is "someone who wants to take my money"--is simply Evil.

    on what planet is this coherent?
    on what planet does it address the question of redistribution of wealth, its political functions, and the problems that might be raised by an ideology that---myopically so far as i am concerned--refuses to even acknowledge that there are political functions to the resdistribution of wealth----that is in ameliorating the social consequences of tendencies to concentration in actually existing capitalism--tendencies that are self-evident if you actually bother to look at the actual history of actual capitalist systems over the past 200 years and don't replace them with empty nonsense based entirely on a simple state of affairs:

    i benefit materially from the existing order--i am the embodiment of virtue--therefore an order that enables an embodiment of virtue such as myself to benefit must be in itself virtuous.

    so it seems that we are not even talking about capitalism--we are not talking about an empirical system at all---we are talking the private language of conservatives for whom capitalism is a sum of projections--no different in kind from "socialists" except with the signs reversed.


    try again.

    most neoliberal "remedies" for problems political and ethical generated by the *radically* uneven distribution of wealth are of three types:

    a. arguments for the reduction of the political effects of these consequences by rolling the state out of wealth redistribution functions. this one makes a certain degree of sense, given that "globalizing capitalism" has posed and continues to pose signficant political problems for nation-states---it reduces their purview in terms of making the rules of the game, greatly increases uncertainty as a result, and so opens the state up for deep and potentially unresolvable political crisis IF the state is exposed in the wrong way at the wrong time---the wrong way means here that the state is involved in attempting to manage social inequities in a situation that it cannot control or even make accurate predictions about; but the fact that the state is involved means that these management efforts are POLITICAL and so the consequences of failure are POLITICAL.

    seen from this viewpoint, neoliberalism can be taken to acknowledge that the radically uneven distribution of wealth is, in fact, a problem--but neoliberals see a choice: either reduce political risk for the state, or continue trying to buy political consent for capitalism through redistribution of wealth--and they opt for the former.

    so they deal with the problem of a *radically* uneven distribution of wealth by running away.

    the argument for doing so is utilitarian--the greatest good for neoliberals is in the continuation of the existing order--the way to continue the existing order is to reduce the risk to its main institutions.

    b. the problem is that this will not sell.
    so there's a second mode of activity: marketing.
    here there is a distinction between neoliberalism and the populist conservatism that you find in the states--the former can be seen as understanding something about the actual, empirical situation generated by globalizing capitalism and making a choice--a bad choice, but an expedient one from a certain viewpoint---while the latter is a kind of test market for the flip of neoliberalism--the ideology that collapses capitalism into a natural phenomenon.
    ......you cant oppose a natural phenomenon.
    populist conservatives and libertarians share an affection for this general viewpoint, and so share another feature as well, that of being chumps.

    c. when political crisis ensues, deal with it with violence/repression.
    if you believe (b) then you will have no problem with (c).
    to take
    TurtleDude 's post above as an index, because it is worth nothing else, the language in it reminds me, paradoxically, of that you find in the short course of the history of the soviet communist party on the topic of the "hitlero-trotskyite wrecker, the saboteur, the Insect.." the Enemy Which Must Be Exterminated so that the otherwise Perfect Order can resume its Perfection.

    so neoliberalism does not pretend that the radically uneven distribution of wealth is not a problem. neoliberals see it. they just dont know what to do about it in the present context. they apply a political calculation to the matter and decide that reducing the risk to which the state is exposed will enable them to survive as holders of some degree of political power longer, so they go that way.

    to sell this choice, they market a different ideology, which we all know and love because we get to see it trotted out in all its simple-minded grandeur here every effing day.

    this makes populist conservatives the simple lackies of an ideology they do not understand.
    they will function to legitimate state violence as a response political crisis CREATED BY the neoliberal gamble with respect to state functions.

    there is more, there is always more, but i'm stopping now.

  2. #672
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    you seem to think we need to pull the rich down to end this--I think the solution is to stop addicting the lower classes to dependency and make failure so painless

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you seem to think we need to pull the rich down to end this--I think the solution is to stop addicting the lower classes to dependency and make failure so painless
    Turtle, take your head out of your shell. Pull the rich down? Are you serious? The just keep getting richer and I wouldn't refer to people who are out of work and can't find a job as the lower class. Bad choice of words don't you think? Sort of condesending to those who are suffering.

  4. #674
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    [...] the innate rights of man [...]


    That's gets 3/3 on the laugh meter!
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Carleen View Post
    Turtle, take your head out of your shell. Pull the rich down? Are you serious? The just keep getting richer and I wouldn't refer to people who are out of work and can't find a job as the lower class. Bad choice of words don't you think? Sort of condesending to those who are suffering.
    If the Rich cry long enough and hard enough that they're poor, their lapdogs and servants will start to believe them.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #676
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Carleen View Post
    Turtle, take your head out of your shell. Pull the rich down? Are you serious? The just keep getting richer and I wouldn't refer to people who are out of work and can't find a job as the lower class. Bad choice of words don't you think? Sort of condesending to those who are suffering.
    ok what is your solution

    post it up

    and tell me why leftwing solutions actually help those who are suffering

  7. #677
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    That is an interesting change of position from you given how much time you spent denying the existence of natural rights and dismissing the premises upon which our Constitution was based and now you talk about this

    the fact is Haymarket-your posts are that of a hard core statist-someone who elevates the state to the position of God and demands that the masses bow down and worship that Lord and Master
    There is no change of position.

    What change of position?

    Yet again - for a time beyond count or calculation - you make baseless and irresponsible allegations completely devoid of not only merit but any tangible form of evidence to support your silly claims.

    Your reading comprehension skills are abysmal. Giving thanks to a higher power is entirely separate and apart from believing that a higher power worked some magical illusions in providing you with rights hundreds of years ago.

    But why confuse you with facts.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If the Rich cry long enough and hard enough that they're poor, their lapdogs and servants will start to believe them.
    and I keep hearing ENVY has nothing to do with these sort of comments--its always funny coming from those who think others have a duty to fund their existence

  9. #679
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    ok what is your solution

    post it up

    and tell me why leftwing solutions actually help those who are suffering
    The "final solution" is to get about 60% of the voters paying little or no FIT, thus all FIT increases effect only the tiny (but vocal) minority that actually must pay FIT, which has no real chance of convincing the majority, that get ever more free stuff, that it is wrong to take their "fair share" of the nation's vast wealth for proper redistribution. Yes they can!
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #680
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is no change of position.

    What change of position?

    Yet again - for a time beyond count or calculation - you make baseless and irresponsible allegations completely devoid of not only merit but any tangible form of evidence to support your silly claims.

    Your reading comprehension skills are abysmal. Giving thanks to a higher power is entirely separate and apart from believing that a higher power worked some magical illusions in providing you with rights hundreds of years ago.

    But why confuse you with facts.
    still trying to figure out what the constitution was premised on

    Its amusing-I don't need others to pay for my existence

    I don't demand others be taxed more to fund what I need

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