Page 67 of 80 FirstFirst ... 1757656667686977 ... LastLast
Results 661 to 670 of 791

Thread: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

  1. #661
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,832

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But if government is the source of rights, then it is perfectly legitimate for government to trample them at will. There is no moral difference, then, between the US and say the Taliban, or the North Koreans, the Nazis, the Soviets, or the Khmer Rouge; no moral argument to be made against slavery, theft or even murder. Recognizing the existence of the innate rights of man is literally the difference between life and death. The human moral code is not determined by the state or the majority, but by reality.
    Legitimate has nothing to do with it. We are simply talking reality here. People have to live in reality - not in the musings of some 17th century dilettante who wanted a new diversion from the angels on the head of a pin discussion.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #662
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But if government is the source of rights, then it is perfectly legitimate for government to trample them at will. There is no moral difference, then, between the US and say the Taliban, or the North Koreans, the Nazis, the Soviets, or the Khmer Rouge; no moral argument to be made against slavery, theft or even murder. Recognizing the existence of the innate rights of man is literally the difference between life and death. The human moral code is not determined by the state or the majority, but by reality.
    some of them sound like the Roman Admiral in BEN HUR

    people exist to serve the state. serve the state well and you will live. do not and you will die

    Their anthem is Pink Floyd's Brick in the Wall

    its like a couple of them telling us the wealth of the successful is held by them only to the extent that the "people" allow them to do so and that the rich ought to crawl on their knees and grovel at the boots of big brother to keep what they earn

  3. #663
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,832

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    some of them sound like the Roman Admiral in BEN HUR

    people exist to serve the state. serve the state well and you will live. do not and you will die

    Their anthem is Pink Floyd's Brick in the Wall

    its like a couple of them telling us the wealth of the successful is held by them only to the extent that the "people" allow them to do so and that the rich ought to crawl on their knees and grovel at the boots of big brother to keep what they earn
    Then you should have no trouble producing the views of people here who believe as you claim.

    Of course, you cannot because you simply make up this nonsense as you go along stuffing a new strawman as needed and producing a frankenstein monster version of reality.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #664
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Then you should have no trouble producing the views of people here who believe as you claim.

    Of course, you cannot because you simply make up this nonsense as you go along stuffing a new strawman as needed and producing a frankenstein monster version of reality.
    so you never claimed the rich should be on their knees thanking the masses



    and catawba does not constantly squawk about tax cuts should be ended because they don't help the masses
    and the wealth of the rich is subordinate to creating jobs for the multitudes?

  5. #665
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,832

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so you never claimed the rich should be on their knees thanking the masses



    and catawba does not constantly squawk about tax cuts should be ended because they don't help the masses
    and the wealth of the rich is subordinate to creating jobs for the multitudes?
    In keeping with a long historical tradition of kneeling to give thanks to a power higher than ones self, I told you that the rich should indeed drop to their knees and be thankful that they live in a time when they are allowed to benefit greatly from their situation and they live in an nation which permits them to keep so much of their wealth.

    Giving thanks is a very very good thing - for the body and for the soul. It reminds us that we are not God.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #666
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    In keeping with a long historical tradition of kneeling to give thanks to a power higher than ones self, I told you that the rich should indeed drop to their knees and be thankful that they live in a time when they are allowed to benefit greatly from their situation and they live in an nation which permits them to keep so much of their wealth.

    Giving thanks is a very very good thing - for the body and for the soul. It reminds us that we are not God.
    That is an interesting change of position from you given how much time you spent denying the existence of natural rights and dismissing the premises upon which our Constitution was based and now you talk about this

    the fact is Haymarket-your posts are that of a hard core statist-someone who elevates the state to the position of God and demands that the masses bow down and worship that Lord and Master

  7. #667
    User post's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Last Seen
    08-12-12 @ 10:04 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    39

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    some of them sound like the Roman Admiral in BEN HUR

    people exist to serve the state. serve the state well and you will live. do not and you will die

    Their anthem is Pink Floyd's Brick in the Wall

    its like a couple of them telling us the wealth of the successful is held by them only to the extent that the "people" allow them to do so and that the rich ought to crawl on their knees and grovel at the boots of big brother to keep what they earn
    http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/f.../200613pap.pdf
    Currents and Undercurrents: Changes in the Distribution of Wealth, 19892004 (a new triennial, SCF, Fed Reserve "Study of Consumer Finances...will be released shortly after the election...sure to document, even further wealth concentration into the hands of the top ten percent.)

    January 30, 2006
    Abstract

    This paper considers changes in the distribution of the wealth of U.S. families over the 19892004 period using data from the Survey of Consumer Finances (SCF)...
    page 27

    ...Ownership shares. For some assets, the distributions of the amounts held are far more disproportionate than the differences in ownership rates. MOST STRIKING is the 62.3 percent share of business assets OWNED BY THE WEALTHIEST 1 percent of the wealth distribution in 2004 (table 11a); the NEXT-WEALTHIEST 4 percent OWNED ANOTHER 22.4 percent of the total. Other key items subject to capital gains also show strong disproportions: THE WEALTHIEST 5 PERCENT OF FAMILIES OWNED 61.9 percent of residential real estate other than principal residences, 71.7 percent of nonresidential real estate, and 65.9 PERCENT OF DIRECTLY- AND INDIRECTLY HELD STOCKS. For bonds, 93.7 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL WERE HELD BY THIS GROUP...."

    http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_589.pdf
    (bottom of page 32)

    "..it is possible to provide a partial update of the wealth figures to July 1, 2009 based on two notable developments....

    ...Trends in inequality are also interesting.... The share of the top 1 percent advanced from 34.6 to 37.1 percent, that of the top 5 percent from 61.8 to 65 percent, and that of the top quintile from 85 to 87.7 percent, while that of the second quintile fell from 10.9 to 10 percent, that of the middle quintile from 4 to 3.1 percent, and that of the bottom two quintiles from 0.2 to -0.8 percent. ..the share of households with zero or negative net worth, from 18.6 to 24.1 percent."
    Hmmmm. 240 million with even less to lose than when the figures above were gathered and tallied more than three years ago. Do the math and wonder how much of that shrinking 12 percent of three years ago will have to transfer to the top fraction of one percent wealthiest before their own guards are not to be relied on to keep them from being murdered in the night in their own beds.

    I pity the man whose political belief system makes so little allowance or concern for the historical knowledge of how badly these wealth imbalances usually end for everyone involved. It won't be pretty when the pushback comes, but events will conform to historical models. Ballots or bullets, you stay your course too long, and it will surely be be the latter.
    Last edited by post; 07-29-12 at 04:24 PM.

  8. #668
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    feel free to revolt if you don't like things. My advice is that you'd be better off working harder rather than pissing and moaning what someone else has and claiming their success impedes your ability to succeed. of course the rich get richer as long as investments yield dividends

    but as I said, if you all want to revolt be my guest, It will be a cathartic removal of the non producers I suspect

  9. #669
    User post's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Last Seen
    08-12-12 @ 10:04 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    39

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    feel free to revolt if you don't like things. My advice is that you'd be better off working harder rather than pissing and moaning what someone else has and claiming their success impedes your ability to succeed. of course the rich get richer as long as investments yield dividends

    but as I said, if you all want to revolt be my guest, It will be a cathartic removal of the non producers I suspect
    In your tiny universe, can you point to the date that everybody else suddenly was less hard working, compared to the wealthiest, so as to no longer merit the benefit of a system of taxation at a level high enough to avoid the long term handicap of massive student loan debt, or a dramatic rise in the wealth and compensation ratios of the wealthiest in the U.S. vs. in competing post industrialized nations?

    Could it have happened because Americans bought into this political deception / propaganda, while residents in other countries continued to align politically with themes more suited to their best interests?

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=DBM...
    Eugene Register-Guard - Google News Archive - Feb 9, 1976

    "by John Fialka of the Washington Ster

    Few people realize it, but Linda Taylor, a 47-year old, Chicago welfare recipient, has become a major campaign issue in the New Hampshire presidential primary. Former California governor Ronald Reagan has referred to her at nearly every stop, using her as part of his "Citizens Press Conference" format. "There's a woman in Chicago," Reagan said last week to an audience in at Gilford. as part of his free-swinging attack on welfare abuses...."



    http://en.wikipedia....dices_over_time
    US income Gini indices over time

    Gini indices for the United States at various times, according to the US Census Bureau:[13][14][15]

    1929: 45.0 (estimated)
    1947: 37.6 (estimated)
    1967: 39.7 (first year reported)
    1968: 38.6 (lowest index reported)
    1970: 39.4
    1980: 40.3
    1990: 42.8
    2000: 46.2
    2005: 46.9
    2006: 47.0 (highest index reported)
    2007: 46.3
    2008: 46.69
    2009: 46.8

    The Gini index was 0.469 in 2010.
    .....The nation's official poverty rate in 2010 was 15.1 percent, up from 14.3 percent in 2009 ─ the third consecutive annual increase in the poverty rate. There were 46.2 million people in poverty in 2010, up from 43.6 million in 2009 ─ the fourth consecutive annual increase and the largest number in the 52 years for which poverty estimates have been published......
    Poverty

    The poverty rate in 2010 was the highest since 1993 but was 7.3 percentage points lower than the poverty rate in 1959, the first year for which poverty estimates are available. Since 2007, the poverty rate has increased by 2.6 percentage points.....


    http://www.nytimes.c....4.6900205.html
    The strains of Danish commitment

    Dec 27th 2007, 18:46 by Free Exchange | Washington, DC

    HOW do you keep 'em down on the egalitarian welfare state after they've seen low taxes? Well, according to this New York Times piece on the flight of talent from Denmark, increasingly you don't.


    The Confederation of Danish Industries estimated in August that the Danish labor force had shrunk by about 19,000 people through the end of 2005, because Danes and others had moved elsewhere. Other studies suggest that about 1,000 people leave the country each year, a figure that masks an outflow of qualified Danes and an inflow of less skilled foreign workers who help, at least partially, to offset the losses.
    The problem, employers and economists believe, has a lot to do with the 63 percent marginal tax rate paid by top earners in Denmark — a level that hits anyone making more than 360,000 Danish kroner, or about $70,000. That same tax rate underpins such effective income redistribution that Denmark is the most nearly equal society in the world, in that wealth is more evenly spread than anywhere else.
    Denmark is such an interesting case because it so closely resembles the kind of society I think the political philosopher John Rawls had in mind in his magnum opus, "A Theory of Justice": economically dynamic egalitarianism. But Mr Rawls ruled out emigration, as a simplifying stipulation. The Times article does an excellent job of showing how supra-national mobility rights in a not-so-simple world limit the feasibility of egalitarian welfare states that rely on punishingly high tax rates.
    Mr Rawls argued that a just society must be "well-ordered". And a well-ordered society must be stable, meaning that its members must willingly comply with its terms. When the "strains of commitment" of a social system are too great, we should expect non-compliance and a not-so-well-ordered system. Rawls' pragmatic argument against utilitarianism was precisely that it requires too much of us, overstrains our ability to prioritise the welfare of others over that of our families and ourselves. But Rawls' own version of egalitarian liberalism may ultimately fall to the same objection.
    The latter third of "A Theory of Justice" is supposed to show how a society implementing Mr Rawls' system of "justice as fairness" can generate allegiance from its citizens and thereby pass the stability test. In a nutshell, citizens will learn to see that such a system is just, which will inspire their native sense of moral rectitude, causing them to voluntarily adhere to its rules, even when it requires some sacrifice of them......

    https://www.cia.gov/...ields/2172.html
    Field Listing - Distribution of family income - Gini index
    ............. Gini
    Denmark .........23.2 (2002) 24.8 (2011 est.)
    Norway ...... 25.8 (2000) 25 (2008)
    Sweden ...... 25 (2000) 23 (2005)
    France ....... 26.7 (2002) 32.7 (2008)
    Finland ...... 26.9 (2000) 26.8 (2008)
    Czech Republic . 27.3 (2003) 31 (2009)
    Germany ...... 28.3 (2000) 27 (2006)
    Netherlands .... 30.9 (2005) 30.9 (2007)
    Austria ........ 31 (2002) 26 (2007)
    European Union .31.6 (2003 est.) 30.4 (2010 est.)
    Canada ...... 32.6 (2000) 32.1 (2005)
    Belgium .......33 (2000) 28 (2005)
    Switzerland .....33.7 (2000) 33.7 (2008)
    Ireland ...... 34.3 (2000) 33.9 (2010)
    Spain ...... 34.7 (2000) 32 (2005)
    Australia ......35.2 (1994) 30.5 (2006)
    Korea, South ....35.8 (2000) 31 (2010)
    United Kingdom ..36 (1999) 34 (2005)
    Italy ...... 36 (2000) 32 (2006)
    New Zealand .....36.2 (1997)
    Japan ...... 38.1 (2002) 37.6 (2008)
    Israel ...... 38.6 (2005) 39.2 (2008)
    Ecuador 42 note: data are for urban households (2003) 47.3 (June 2011)
    Burundi ........ 42.4 (1998)
    Iran ........ 43 (1998) 44.5 (2006)
    Uganda ........ 43 (1999) 44.3 (2009)
    Nicaragua ...... 43.1 (2001) 40.5 (2010)
    Turkey ........ 43.6 (2003) 40.2 (2010)
    Nigeria ........ 43.7 (2003)
    Kenya ......... 44.5 (1997) 42.5 (2008 est.)
    Philippines .....44.5 (2003) 45.8 (2006)
    Cameroon ........44.6 (2001) 44.6 (2001)
    Uruguay ........ 44.6 (2000) 45.3 (2010)
    Cote d'Ivoire ...44.6 (2002) 41.5 (2008)
    United States ...45 (2004) 45 (2007)
    Jamaica ........ 45.5 (2004)
    Rwanda ........ 46.8 (2000)
    Malaysia ........46.1 (2002) 46.2 (2009)
    Mexico ........ 46.1 (2004) 51.7 (2008)
    China ........ 46.9 (2004) 48 (2009)
    Nepal .......... 47.2 (2004) 47.2 (2008)
    Mozambique ......47.3 (2002) 45.6 (2008)
    Madagascar ......47.5 (2001)
    Venezuela .......49.1 (1998) 39 (2011)
    Argentina .......48.3 (June 2006) 45.8 (2009)
    Costa Rica.......49.8 (2003) 50.3 (2009)
    Sri Lanka .......50 (FY03/04) 49 (2009)
    Niger ...........50.5 (1995) 34 (2007)
    Papua New Guinea 50.9 (1996)
    Thailand ........51.1 (2002) 53.6 (2009)
    Dominican Republic 51.6 (2004) 48.4 (2007)
    Peru ............52 (2003) 46 (2010)
    Zambia ........ 52.6 (1998) 50.8 (2004)
    Hong Kong........52.3 (2001) 53.3 (2007)
    El Salvador......52.4 (2002) 46.9 (2007)
    Honduras ........53.8 (2003) 57.7 (2007)
    Colombia ....... 53.8 (2005) 56 (2010)
    Chile .......... 54.9 (2003) 52.1 (2009)
    Panama ........ 56.1 (2003) 51.9 (2010 est.)
    Brazil ......... 56.7 (2005) 51.9 (2012)
    Zimbabwe ........56.8 (2003) 50.1 (2006)
    Paraguay ........58.4 (2003) 53.2 (2009)
    South Africa ....59.3 (1995) 65 (2005)
    Guatemala 59.9 (2005) 55.1 (2007)
    Bolivia ........ 60.1 (2002) 58.2 (2009)
    Central African Republic 61.3 (1993)
    Sierra Leone ....62.9 (1989)
    Botswana........ 63 (1993) 63 (1993)
    Lesotho 63.2 (1995)
    Namibia .........70.7 (2003)
    http://www.detroitne...ext|FRONTPAGE|s
    The Detroit News - 23 hours ago
    Including federal loans, Americans owe more than $1 trillion in student loan debt, the CFPB said. It has surpassed credit card debt as the

    http://news.google.c...st states&hl=en
    The Free Lance-Star - Nov 14, 1966
    ....College is Getting More Expensive
    ...Members of the two higher education groups enroll about one half of all students in the nation's colleges and universities....
    ....The median yearly cost of tu- ition, room and board for in- state student living at the public institutions
    was about $1000....

    http://www.dollartim.../inflation.htm/

    $1,000.00 in 1966 had the same buying power as $7,096.60 in 2012.
    Annual inflation over this period was 4.35%.

    http://seattletimes....tuition24m.html
    $20K in-state tuition may not be far off in Washington
    Originally published Monday, July 23, 2012

    .....The total cost of attending the UW and Washington State University as an in-state undergraduate can actually be about $25,000 a year when factoring in the cost of books, transportation, living expenses and other student needs.[/QUOTE]

    Your politics allow for a result of only more acute wealth concentration, wealth imbalance. Demand has evaporated in this economy, the average private vehicle is more than ten years old. The 2005 bankruptcy "reform" was the beginning of an acceleration downward of demand potential. The evaporation of home equity and employment opportunity destroyed the wealth effect perception of the have nots, and their ability to borrow to help extend the wealth effect perception.

    Now, there is nothing on the horizon except the old Reagan saw of demonizing the least powerful and attacking any political approach intended to reduce the wealth imbalance as "socialist" or "marxist". The income and inheritance taxes introduced one hundred years ago were the result of intimidation of the holders of concentrated wealth by the have nots. Examples such as this, come to mind.:

    Battle of Blair Mountain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Battle of Blair Mountain was one of the largest civil uprisings in United States history and the largest armed rebellion since the American Civil War.[1] For five days in late August and early September 1921, in Logan County, West Virginia, some 10,000 armed coal miners confronted 3,000 lawmen and strikebreakers, called the Logan Defenders,[2]who were backed by coal mine operators during an attempt by the miners to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. The battle ended after approximately one million rounds were fired,[3] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.....

  10. #670
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    I love the "we will revolt" nonsense

    maybe its time to rephrase an old British line dealing with uprisings by "the natives"

    No matter what happens, what we've got
    are most of these shooters and you do not

Page 67 of 80 FirstFirst ... 1757656667686977 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •