Page 66 of 80 FirstFirst ... 1656646566676876 ... LastLast
Results 651 to 660 of 791

Thread: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

  1. #651
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is what the founders thought when they penned the constitution and its what the courts noted when they said those rights do not depend on the constitution for their existence
    The courts can note what they want but the bottom line is those rights are recognized and enforced because they are in the Constitution. Their current day recognition and enforcement has nothing to do with mythical celestial friends, commons that no longer exist, or any other philosophical crap from 3+ centuries ago.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  2. #652
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It was a false premise and thus has no relevance here.

    If a child believes that Santa Claus brought the shiny new bicycle under the tree and then later discovers that there is no Santa and the parents purchased the bike and placed it under the tree, the bicycle is till there even though what they believed in and thought provided for it is proven to be a lie.

    All the Founders lined up around the globe can believe anything they want to believe. And those beliefs translate into nothing by themselves. Those beliefs conferred no rights to any behaviors that they believed were important. It was only through the action of the people in forcing the government to recognize those behaviors and granting them in official recognition as rights that they became rights we had.

    YOu cannot have a right to exercise if the government says you don't have it. Pure and simple and all the dilettantes lined up end to end writing fancy essays on parchment cannot change that reality. All the beliefs of all the philosophers and dilettantes cannot change that reality.
    a false premise

    LOL idiotic

  3. #653
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:55 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,845

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    a false premise

    LOL idiotic
    This will help educate you on the huge fallacy you continue to commit

    False premise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    here is your statement

    The constitution is based on the premise that people have certain inalienable rights.
    False premise.

    You will note that when the Constitution was drafted 1787 , it dealt solely with the structure and construction of a government. There is precious little in it about the rights of the people - inalienable spiritual, supernatural or any other mystical properties attributed to them.

    Like many people who profess a knowledge of history, you make the often made error of confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. Its okay - if I had a dollar for every person who confuses the two I could buy a tri-cornered hat.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-29-12 at 12:53 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #654
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,586

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The courts can note what they want but the bottom line is those rights are recognized and enforced because they are in the Constitution. Their current day recognition and enforcement has nothing to do with mythical celestial friends, commons that no longer exist, or any other philosophical crap from 3+ centuries ago.
    Unless, of course, you wish to assert that SSM (but not polygamy) and abortion on demand are protected rights, then it is OK to allow the nine robed umpires to make that "correct" call with no need to point out just what in the constitution actually makes it so. Just as allowing taxation of income from all soucres (16th amendment) somehow makes it just peachy to tax you based on how that income was later spent (or NOT spent) resulting in different (UNEQUAL) taxation on the same income from the same source. Hmm...
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #655
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Unless, of course, you wish to assert that SSM (but not polygamy) and abortion on demand are protected rights, then it is OK to allow the nine robed umpires to make that "correct" call with no need to point out just what in the constitution actually makes it so. Just as allowing taxation of income from all soucres (16th amendment) somehow makes it just peachy to tax you based on how that income was later spent (or NOT spent) resulting in different (UNEQUAL) taxation on the same income from the same source. Hmm...
    I'm not arguing that rights are not man-made. In fact, I've been arguing the exact opposite - that all rights ARE man-made, except those I noted in post #619.

    Perhaps you have the sides confused in this discussion? Or maybe you need to explain your position better. You seem to be saying rights are man-made and I couldn't agree more.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-29-12 at 01:01 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #656
    Sage
    Fletch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mentor Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:24 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    15,270

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    All you have done is offer an explanation as some of the motivations of the Founders. Motivations - by themselves - do not create anything. They simply help impel one to do things. Faith or a belief creates nothing if it is based on something which does not exist or can be proven to exist.
    You asked a question. I answered it. That you dont like it or cant grasp it really isnt my problem.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men."

    Like it or not; agree with it or not; understand it or not, the above quote answers your question. Nothing could be more clear. If you are still in the dark, someone else will have to help you. As to whether or not innate rights exist, I believe that they do. And an argument, independent of God, can be made for their existence, but it is not something that lends itself to forums and isnt something you would likely be able to get your mind around even if it were.

  7. #657
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You asked a question. I answered it. That you dont like it or cant grasp it really isnt my problem.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men."

    Like it or not; agree with it or not; understand it or not, the above quote answers your question. Nothing could be more clear. If you are still in the dark, someone else will have to help you. As to whether or not innate rights exist, I believe that they do. And an argument, independent of God, can be made for their existence, but it is not something that lends itself to forums and isnt something you would likely be able to get your mind around even if it were.
    I suspect when someone worships government, lobbies for government to have more and more of our wealth, it is only normal for them to see government as the source of all rights and all that is good

  8. #658
    Sage
    Fletch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mentor Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:24 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    15,270

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I suspect when someone worships government, lobbies for government to have more and more of our wealth, it is only normal for them to see government as the source of all rights and all that is good
    But if government is the source of rights, then it is perfectly legitimate for government to trample them at will. There is no moral difference, then, between the US and say the Taliban, or the North Koreans, the Nazis, the Soviets, or the Khmer Rouge; no moral argument to be made against slavery, theft or even murder. Recognizing the existence of the innate rights of man is literally the difference between life and death. The human moral code is not determined by the state or the majority, but by reality.

  9. #659
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:55 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,845

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You asked a question. I answered it. That you dont like it or cant grasp it really isnt my problem.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men."

    Like it or not; agree with it or not; understand it or not, the above quote answers your question. Nothing could be more clear. If you are still in the dark, someone else will have to help you. As to whether or not innate rights exist, I believe that they do. And an argument, independent of God, can be made for their existence, but it is not something that lends itself to forums and isnt something you would likely be able to get your mind around even if it were.
    And you too have made the fundamental error of confusing belief with fact. Nothing could be more clear. Belief creates nothing in an of itself. It is divorced from action and simply a commitment of the will. The Founders could believe in anything they wanted to believe in including God, inalienable rights or fifty foot dancing easter bunnies in April. But their belief created none of those things.

    It took action by men - regardless of what each of them believed - to take a behavior that people wanted and change that into a right.

    If the government says you DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT - then you do not have it. All the belief in the world does not change that. All the faith in the world does not change that. All the dilettantes sitting before parchment and vellum writing down their thoughts and musings does not change that. None of them creates of bestows or gives or grants rights.

    You seem to ignore the central issue here. Turtle saw fit to criticize both my knowledge of government and my professional skills because I did not accept his belief system as it pertains to where rights come from. Many people have already pointed out that this is not a matter of fact that is decided and put to bed. It is open for argument and open for discussion. And your side cannot prove that natural rights exist at the end of the day no matter who believed in them.

    The bottom line here is this: Turtle saw fit to take a cheap shot - one of the worst - at me personally and issue a vitriolic attack upon me for me simply being on a side different than his in the matter of BELIEF.

    Anything else is simply moving he goal posts.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #660
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:55 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,845

    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I suspect when someone worships government, lobbies for government to have more and more of our wealth, it is only normal for them to see government as the source of all rights and all that is good
    I suspect when someone only looks to polish their own ass that the whole rest of the world looks like a cheap towel. It is only normal for them to ignore the contributions of government to the nation and to our people and the rights we enjoy in reality and not simply the musings of idle dilettantes.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Page 66 of 80 FirstFirst ... 1656646566676876 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •