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Thread: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The laws of the land are based upon their existence--that is a fact. You can argue that natural rights do or do not exist, but that the Founders believed that they did and erected a Constitution based upon their existence is a fact.

    I partially agree, but THAT is not what you originally posted. It is extremely difficult today for us to determine the exact beliefs of those we call the Founders as so much of their public writing was intended to establish the foundation and to propagate those thoughts in a population with little education in Enlightenment philosophy. The Founders may or may not have thought of certain things in the same way we do today, we simply don't know.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The word "fact" was used in regard to the fact that our founding documents are based upon the existence of natural rights--which is a fact, not that natural rights are a 'fact.'
    The fact that I note is WHAT the constitution was based on. Whether natural rights exist is not at issue nor does a debate on natural rights serve to undermine the additional fact that I am right and Haymarket and others are wrong. My assertion-the Bill of Rights does not GIVE rights is correct based both on the views of those who penned that document and the courts that interpreted it. The assertion that the Amendments created or gave or bestowed rights is an incorrect assertion.

    nothing more nothing less

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The fact that I note is WHAT the constitution was based on. Whether natural rights exist is not at issue nor does a debate on natural rights serve to undermine the additional fact that I am right and Haymarket and others are wrong.
    Really???
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Nothing quite compares to that other than someone claiming that the SECOND AMENDMENT DOES NOT GIVE us the right to KBA (DUH the amendments merely RECOGNIZE rights)
    So who was it that gave you those rights?
    natural law, natural rights-look it up
    You are plainly saying your rights come from natural law and natural rights - not that the Constitution is based on natural law/natural rights.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-29-12 at 12:09 PM.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Really??? You are plainly saying your rights come from natural law and natural rights - not that the Constitution is based on natural law/natural rights.
    that is what the founders thought when they penned the constitution and its what the courts noted when they said those rights do not depend on the constitution for their existence

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I am not sure why you are having so much trouble understanding this because it is not really all that complicated. So I will give it one final shot: Your question "Where do your Constitutional rights come from?" is answered by saying that the Founders believed rights were 'self evident' and endowed upon man by his Creator. To secure these rights, they established the Constitution. Like it or not, the laws of this nation are based upon that premise. They established a political framework to secure a moral principle; namely, rights.

    Now, if you believe there are no inherent rights, you are free to do so, but that does not change the fact that the laws of this land are based upon their existence.
    All you have done is offer an explanation as some of the motivations of the Founders. Motivations - by themselves - do not create anything. They simply help impel one to do things. Faith or a belief creates nothing if it is based on something which does not exist or can be proven to exist.

    Today is Sunday morning. All over America and the world people are gathered in religious buildings and profess their faith and belief in a God. If they all concentrated really really really hard at the same coordinated minute and they all poured their faith and belief into enegry to turn it into reality - nothing would happen. A three hundred foot God would to suddenly materialize like the Stay-Puff marshmallow man in GHOSTBUSTERS.

    A belief that you have rights - even if in real life you do not have them - does not create any rights or endow you with any. You ain't got what you ain't got pure and simple.

    The founders may have believed any damn thing they wanted to believe. But those beliefs did not magically transform into reality through the act of faith or belief. What provided actual real honest to goodness rights for the American people was an agreement among people that they should have certain behaviors as rights and then a forcing of the government to place those desired behavior into law and then they become rights. But until that is done - they are not rights. They are merely hopes and dreams.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is what the founders thought when they penned the constitution and its what the courts noted when they said those rights do not depend on the constitution for their existence
    The case you cited simply offers the same expression of faith or belief. It means nothing as evidence for anything we are talking about.

    One cannot help but think of the attorney played by John Payne in MIRACLE ON 34th STREET where he gets the court to declare that Santa Claus is a real person.

    A court ruling based on faith and belief does not make it so in reality.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The case you cited simply offers the same expression of faith or belief. It means nothing as evidence for anything we are talking about.

    One cannot help but think of the attorney played by John Payne in MIRACLE ON 34th STREET where he gets the court to declare that Santa Claus is a real person.

    A court ruling based on faith and belief does not make it so in reality.
    I will try explain this simply to you so you can stop so much diversions

    The constitution is based on the premise that people have certain inalienable rights. The constitution merely recognizes those rights: it was not drafted to CREATE THOSE RIGHTS but merely to acknowledge them and then to delegate certain powers that were held by the people and the several states to the newly created federal government

    no more no less

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I will try explain this simply to you so you can stop so much diversions

    The constitution is based on the premise that people have certain inalienable rights. The constitution merely recognizes those rights: it was not drafted to CREATE THOSE RIGHTS but merely to acknowledge them and then to delegate certain powers that were held by the people and the several states to the newly created federal government

    no more no less
    It was a false premise and thus has no relevance here.

    If a child believes that Santa Claus brought the shiny new bicycle under the tree and then later discovers that there is no Santa and the parents purchased the bike and placed it under the tree, the bicycle is till there even though what they believed in and thought provided for it is proven to be a lie.

    All the Founders lined up around the globe can believe anything they want to believe. And those beliefs translate into nothing by themselves. Those beliefs conferred no rights to any behaviors that they believed were important. It was only through the action of the people in forcing the government to recognize those behaviors and granting them in official recognition as rights that they became rights we had.

    YOu cannot have a right to exercise if the government says you don't have it. Pure and simple and all the dilettantes lined up end to end writing fancy essays on parchment cannot change that reality. All the beliefs of all the philosophers and dilettantes cannot change that reality.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I will try explain this simply to you so you can stop so much diversions

    The constitution is based on the premise that people have certain inalienable rights. The constitution merely recognizes those rights: it was not drafted to CREATE THOSE RIGHTS but merely to acknowledge them and then to delegate certain powers that were held by the people and the several states to the newly created federal government

    no more no less
    That's a far cry from the philosophical mumbo-jumbo about natural laws/natural rights you were invoking earlier.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's a far cry from the philosophical mumbo-jumbo about natural laws/natural rights you were invoking earlier.
    Its called trying to move the goal posts after you missed all your previous attempts at field goals.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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