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Thread: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

  1. #631
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the issue is what the bill of rights was created for

    its obvious you do not know

    it was not to Create rights but to recognize rights the founders believed they had

    try again
    Your declaration that our rights are "natural rights" is bogus. By your own admission our rights are nothing more than a recognition of a fiction the Founders had, which was based on their belief in a Celestial Friend and required the existence of a Commons which we no longer have.

    You fail.




    If the Bill of Rights were critical to the country then they wouldn't be Amendments to the Constitution, they would be in the body of the Constitution itself.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-29-12 at 01:40 AM.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Your declaration that our rights are "natural rights" is bogus. By your own admission our rights are nothing more than a recognition of a fiction the Founders had, which was based on their belief in a Celestial Friend and required the existence of a Commons which we no longer have.

    You fail.




    If the Bill of Rights were critical to the country then they wouldn't be Amendments to the Constitution, they would be in the body of the Constitution itself.
    LOL the failure is those who think the intent of the B of R was to GIVE us rights

    and your last comment is so stupid I will let you think about it overnight and come back and admit your idiocy in posting that

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    LOL the failure is those who think the intent of the B of R was to GIVE us rights
    I've already said the B of R simply recognized a fiction based on Celestial Friends and a non-existent Commons. That doesn't make them "natural rights" as you claimed.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you'd be better off just finding another thread rather than accentuating your fail

    why are you bringing this up again
    Because you did. Are you unable to follow the thread? (altho I will admit you have your hands full with the 'natural rights' crowd)

    So, any nibbles from the Texas State Board of Education yet? If it hasn't gone to the printers yet, you can add a chapter how the American Indians invaded the North American continent after the U.S. was already established (after all, they were in cahoots with the British during that country's 1812 invasion of America)
    Last edited by Karl; 07-29-12 at 02:19 AM.

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I've already said the B of R simply recognized a fiction based on Celestial Friends and a non-existent Commons. That doesn't make them "natural rights" as you claimed.
    At the start of this discussion last night I asked one very clear and direct question: Where do your Constitutional rights come from? It is a simple question. Turtle stated that they came from natural law and natural rights.

    Another simple question: how can something that is real be created and empowered by something which is not real?

    Another question: people all over the world in 200 different nations have rights. Did their rights come from the same natural law that some of our Founders believed in?

    A person - even a Founder - can BELIEVE in anything they want to believe in. Faith works like that. They can then take those beliefs and integrate them into their own thinking process and help them formulate ideas about all kinds of things. What the shape of government should be can be one of those things. The rights people should have could be one of those things.

    The faith or belief does not produce any rights no matter how many people believe in them. What produces the right is that enough people come to an agreement on the need for a certain behavior to be elevated to a right. Those same people then exert power or force compelling the government of the nation to officially place that behavior as a right into the legal system of that same nation. In our case it becomes part of our Constitution.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-29-12 at 09:04 AM.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    At the start of this discussion last night I asked one very clear and direct question: Where do your Constitutional rights come from? It is a simple question. Turtle stated that they came from natural law and natural rights.

    Another simple question: how can something that is real be created and empowered by something which is not real?

    Another question: people all over the world in 200 different nations have rights. Did their rights come from the same natural law that some of our Founders believed in?

    A person - even a Founder - can BELIEVE in anything they want to believe in. Faith works like that. They can then take those beliefs and integrate them into their own thinking process and help them formulate ideas about all kinds of things. What the shape of government should be can be one of those things. The rights people should have could be one of those things.

    The faith or belief does not produce any rights no matter how many people believe in them. What produces the right is that enough people come to an agreement on the need for a certain behavior to be elevated to a right. Those same people then exert power or force compelling the government of the nation to officially place that behavior as a right into the legal system of that same nation. In our case it becomes part of our Constitution.
    I am not sure why you are having so much trouble understanding this because it is not really all that complicated. So I will give it one final shot: Your question "Where do your Constitutional rights come from?" is answered by saying that the Founders believed rights were 'self evident' and endowed upon man by his Creator. To secure these rights, they established the Constitution. Like it or not, the laws of this nation are based upon that premise. They established a political framework to secure a moral principle; namely, rights.

    Now, if you believe there are no inherent rights, you are free to do so, but that does not change the fact that the laws of this land are based upon their existence.

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    A small correction

    Fletch wrote
    Now, if you believe there are no inherent rights, you are free to do so, but that does not change the fact that the laws of this land are based upon their existence.

    There is no "fact" here, some of the Founders held such a belief but beliefs do not make 'facts'. There is also the problem of understanding our ancestors' thinking on such philosophical matters. For the most part, those men who laid the foundations for the USA of today were the 1% of their time and much of their public work was seen by them as a means of providing a more benevolent control over lesser beings. They were far more class conscious than are most of us today; however, part of their class consciousness as a result of Enlightenment thinking was what some might call noblesse oblige - the obligation of the top class to take care of the remainder of the population. The big change that they helped create was to increase the possibility for one of the lower classes rising to the top, which was relatively radical thought when compared to the structure of the previous eras.
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    A small correction




    There is no "fact" here, some of the Founders held such a belief but beliefs do not make 'facts'. There is also the problem of understanding our ancestors' thinking on such philosophical matters. For the most part, those men who laid the foundations for the USA of today were the 1% of their time and much of their public work was seen by them as a means of providing a more benevolent control over lesser beings. They were far more class conscious than are most of us today; however, part of their class consciousness as a result of Enlightenment thinking was what some might call noblesse oblige - the obligation of the top class to take care of the remainder of the population. The big change that they helped create was to increase the possibility for one of the lower classes rising to the top, which was relatively radical thought when compared to the structure of the previous eras.
    The word "fact" was used in regard to the fact that our founding documents are based upon the existence of natural rights--which is a fact, not that natural rights are a 'fact.'

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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The word "fact" was used in regard to the fact that our founding documents are based upon the existence of natural rights--which is a fact, not that natural rights are a 'fact.'

    That is certainly not what your earlier statement claimed.

    inherent rights, ... the fact that the laws of this land are based upon their existence.
    AND, how can the "existence" of something be a fact, yet the actual object may not be a fact?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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    Re: Obama to call for middle class tax cut extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    That is certainly not what your earlier statement claimed.



    AND, how can the "existence" of something be a fact, yet the actual object may not be a fact?
    The laws of the land are based upon their existence--that is a fact. You can argue that natural rights do or do not exist, but that the Founders believed that they did and erected a Constitution based upon their existence is a fact.

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