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Thread: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I disagree with repsect presidents and the economy. economic policies and exapmples ae set by sitting presidents. When we consider FDR vs Ronald Reagan, we find a mirror image: growth went in totally opposite directions and RR ran up a 10% unemployment rate based on his examples, whlie FDR closed the unemployment rate and economic growth went directly to the wage earners of the country who spent themselves into the highest standard of living in the world. RR's policies sent economic growth away from the wage earner, who without an appropriate rate of expendable income have been retreating ever since. As corporate and 1% incomes have gone sky high, without the propper balance that framers guaranteed, we have seen economic activty in this country drop off to near nothing.

    The Democrats for their part, offer a raod to a return to the great days of this country. The Republicans conversely only offer a closed door and a ''members only club". The answer; quite frankly is for the Republian leadership to start setting examples of respect, which they do not offer at all.
    You cannot compare Reagan to FDR, when it comes to unemployment. FDR had WWII to deal with, and drafting millions into the armed forces had a lot to do with bringing the unemployment rate down. On the other hand, Reagan did not have that luxury. One further note: The stock market did not reach the level it had before the crash until 1953.
    Last edited by danarhea; 07-07-12 at 10:33 PM.
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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    You cannot compare Reagan to FDR, when it comes to unemployment. FDR had WWII to deal with, and drafting millions into the armed forces had a lot to do with bringing the unemployment rate down. On the other hand, Reagan did not have that luxury. One further note: The stock market did not reach the level it had before the crash until 1953.
    No; you've missed the point completely. I'm not talking about WWII. The dye was cast before the war. FDR policies; the NRA, the CCCP etc and being pro labor set the paradigm by which the new US foundation was able to set the highest standard of living in the world. The policies and examples that Reagan set, almost immeditately led to 10% unemployment, a new paradigm of "corporate culture" and a bottom line mentality that overrode common sense security issues in America and the ultimate decline of our standard of living: and now we face ruin because of it.

    I made the point about presidents setting policy and providing examples; so it was Bush's fault. he knew very well what was going on and he turned a blind eye to it: that's exaclty what happened in 1928 and '29 . . . wall Street was turned loose and the results speak for themselves.
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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    No; you've missed the point completely. I'm not talking about WWII. The dye was cast before the war. FDR policies; the NRA, the CCCP etc and being pro labor set the paradigm by which the new US foundation was able to set the highest standard of living in the world. The policies and examples that Reagan set, almost immeditately led to 10% unemployment, a new paradigm of "corporate culture" and a bottom line mentality that overrode common sense security issues in America and the ultimate decline of our standard of living: and now we face ruin because of it.

    I made the point about presidents setting policy and providing examples; so it was Bush's fault. he knew very well what was going on and he turned a blind eye to it: that's exaclty what happened in 1928 and '29 . . . wall Street was turned loose and the results speak for themselves.
    No, YOU are the one who is missing the point. You give FDR all this credit that HIS policies are responsible for the economy improving, when that is not the case at all. The Great Depression was a double dip, with the second dip happening in the mid 30's, despite FDR's best efforts. It WAS WWII, and the demand for wartime goods, not FDR, that pulled us out of the Great Depression. Republican policies of the day put us there, but it wasn't Democratic policies that got us out.
    Last edited by danarhea; 07-07-12 at 11:50 PM.
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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    No, YOU are the one who is missing the point. You give FDR all this credit that HIS policies are responsible for the economy improving, when that is not the case at all. The Great Depression was a double dip, with the second dip happening in the mid 30's, despite FDR's best efforts. It WAS WWII, and the demand for wartime goods, not FDR, that pulled us out of the Great Depression. Republican policies of the day put us there, but it wasn't Democratic policies that got us out.
    Its republican policies that got us here now also....manufacturing is doing just SWELL in china...and thats why manufacturing numbers here suck...but for the life of the right wing they cant bring themselves to ADMIT that that is the reason for most of our UNEMPLOYMENT here.....they lubs them some china man

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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    No, YOU are the one who is missing the point. You give FDR all this credit that HIS policies are responsible for the economy improving, when that is not the case at all. The Great Depression was a double dip, with the second dip happening in the mid 30's, despite FDR's best efforts. It WAS WWII, and the demand for wartime goods, not FDR, that pulled us out of the Great Depression. Republican policies of the day put us there, but it wasn't Democratic policies that got us out.
    Yes, it is true that war created a manufacturing boom. The point however is that FDR's policies laid the foundation for the accomplsiments that I have named. The NRA and CCCP got people out and working during the dpression: it was deficit spending, but it was showing people (who had a much different work ethic) that we were getting to work. FDR's support for labor escorted in the economcic balance, coupled with the GI bill, that created the American Dream.

    Now, Ronald Reagan's policies were the antithesis of those accomplismements and his policies escorted in the ruin we have reaped through a corporate culture and and emphasis on the return of contollable investment. The dichotomy is amazing and it's all on the record. So presidents do indeed effect changes in the country and can be blamed for both national successes and failures.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yes, it is true that war created a manufacturing boom.
    Uhuh. Um Yeaaah.
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    Death2Globalists Matt Foley's Avatar
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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    No, YOU are the one who is missing the point. You give FDR all this credit that HIS policies are responsible for the economy improving, when that is not the case at all. The Great Depression was a double dip, with the second dip happening in the mid 30's, despite FDR's best efforts. It WAS WWII, and the demand for wartime goods, not FDR, that pulled us out of the Great Depression. Republican policies of the day put us there, but it wasn't Democratic policies that got us out.
    Actually

    A) The US was already moving out of the Great Depression before the war hit

    B) It was our competitors factories being bombed, not manufacturing bombs, that improved the economy. If the US had actually stayed out of the war, all things being equal and the outcome didn't change, than the US economy would have even more healthy in the 1950's.
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    Death2Globalists Matt Foley's Avatar
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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    and drafting millions into the armed forces had a lot to do with bringing the unemployment rate down.
    So the unemployment number is the be-all end-all economic indicator huh.

    Unemployment low, everything is hunky dorey.

    Unemployment high, doomsday.

    So by that logic, if put everyone that was unemployed on a ship and then put them out to sea, then the economy would just totally improve overnight. Except for the part where aggregate demand is decreased in direct proportion to the population decrease, then more unemployed people are created, then we could put them on a ship. Aggregate demand would decrease again, making more unemployed people, put them on a ship. So on and so forth.
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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Foley View Post
    Uhuh. Um Yeaaah.
    Uh, I agreed with something the man said; what's your point?
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: June 2012 Manufacturing ISM Report On Business

    I have a theory about this. We just had the worst recession since the depression. Now, it wasn't as bad as the Great Depression but it was pretty bad.

    This has had 2 possible consequences:

    1) Just as my parents were scarred by the Great Depression, maybe this recession did something similar. My parents were incapable of spending money. The drove the cheapest AMC product and drove it until the wheels LITERALLY fell of. They bought what little clothing they had in thrift shops. They never owned a luxury of any kind and they didn't have a TV (until I delivered one 20 years ago). They saved up $3 million dollars and my Mother donated every bit of it to the most unlikely charity you can imagine. My father, 100, is still alive and he counts every penny 20 times. He has a retirement salary of $9,000.00 a month. Yeah, scarred.

    A little of that wore off on me but I had phases where I made, and spent, a lot of money. In my dotage, I'm back n my thrifty personality.

    So, I have observed how ludicrous most peoples spending habits are. What in the name of the flame dancer would you need a Rolex for? People buy mountains of **** that they do not need and does not fulfill anything in their lives.

    So, my postulation is that maybe consumers have learned a little bit and they just won't buy crap at th same pace as before.

    2) I have friends, younger than I, who work for big Corporations in a variety of positions. None of them has had a raise for 4 years - only CEO bonuses go up. This must put a bit of fear in the consumer mind as well. Cost of living is going up (unless you ask the USG) because EVERYTHING IS MORE EXPENSIVE now.

    So, maybe they are inclined to stick to necessities and thus consumerism is going down. The CEO can only buy so many yachts but hundreds of thousands of workers aren't getting raises.

    OK, just my theory. It has nothing to do with politics.

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