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Thread: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Didn't claim to any credentials. Just know that all the fat folks walking around don't have medical conditions. They just plain old eat fatty foods. The way to cure that "problem" is to stop eating fatty foods. I guess that is confusing because it is such a simple solution. But there are times when simplicity is really the way to go.
    Simplicity in this case is merely a sign of unwillingness to face up to the complexity of the issue.

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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    It's a long overdue reform of a crippled and increasingly dysfunctional system, a reform that includes new taxes, new tax credits, and new subsidies, but which is a priori deficit-neutral, thereby not adding to net taxes or to the net need for taxes.


    You had me at TAXES.

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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    One useful thing about the obesity crisis: It provides a handy dandy, simple explanation for the soaring cost of health care and gives a great excuse to simply say, "Hey, just eat less!" and then go on our way doing nothing about the core issues. It even fits neatly on a bumper sticker: "Eat less". It's a lot like the "just say no" campaign, simple, easy to understand, and totally ineffective.

    But, it makes us feel good. There. I've offered a solution to the problem, so it's now solved.
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    So even with a luxury of time that most people simply don't have available, you are able to prepare perhaps 5% (?) of the sometimes fattening anyway foods that you eat from scratch using all these wholesome natural ingredients? That's all well and good, but it doesn't really get you off the train.


    Hmmm. Avoidance by some of self-criticism implied under reality-based thinking, then.
    My point was that junk food is easier than healhy food. preparing a salad takes more time than nuking a burrito. the veggies in the salad also can go bad if you don't eat them in a timely fashion, wheras the burrito is happy to remain in your freezer for an indefinite period of time. It isn't so much a problem with access to healthy food but with ease of junk food.

    Not sure what that bit about avoidance was, perhaps you misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that blaming the victim is/was/will always be used I was not advocating the tactic
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Take a look around. This recently invented obesity meme is a fraud. The whole world is getting fatter, and a principal reason for that is the spread of the "western diet", characterized as it is by the highly refined, nutrient-hollow, oversalted, fat- and calorie-laden foodstuffs produced and promoted by a giant, for-profit, agribusiness industry. Consumers can only buy what is available on the shelves, and that ain't what it used to be.

    As for drugs, the ones that do by far the most damage are the ones mis-prescribed and mal-administered by an out of control, for-profit health care system. Drugs of choice -- including anabolic steroids, by the way -- do no harm at all in comparison.

    Part of the job of the propagandists hired by the people who make all the profits from these profit-driven systems is to come up with phony reasons to blame the people being hurt by them for their own injuries. Rapists used to try that sort of blame-the-victim thing back in the day, but we don't let them get way with that anymore. Some people need to make the same kind of progress in a few other areas.
    Somebody else here already said the healthy foods are on the shelves, and they are right. There is actually more healthy food available than in the past, not less like you claim. But people crave fat and sugar so that's what they eat. Nobody wants to feel like they are 'deprived.' Like self-control is deprivation.

    You are right about the western diet. But who wants to educate himself on what's healthy and what isn't? Most people don't care enough to do that, so they get fatter, by choice, and their kids have poor role models in the diet area, so the cycle continues.

    Anyway, people who eat unhealthy food and too much of it are not victims. Lots of people who were brought up on the meat-based diet have learned healthier ways to eat, and chose to go in a different direction. The information is out there for anybody who cares to read it.
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    My point was that junk food is easier than healhy food. preparing a salad takes more time than nuking a burrito.
    Actually, I can purchase salads in plastic tubs and bags that zip open and are ready to eat in far less time than it takes to nuke a frozen burrito, but I'm not sure why this would make a difference either way. What we are talking about is an effect that cuts across populations. Virtually all of them. Obesity as presently defined and measured is increasing everywhere. The problem isn't that Bob eats burritos and is a fat slob. There have always been fat slobs. The actual problem is global and systemic -- not local and individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Not sure what that bit about avoidance was, perhaps you misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that blaming the victim is/was/will always be used I was not advocating the tactic
    Yes, I think I understood that. I was pointing out the frequent use of "blame-the-victim" as an excusification by those who simply don't want to face up to the consequences of their own responsibilities. They'd rather just blame Bob.
    Last edited by Cardinal Fang; 07-15-12 at 10:19 PM.

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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Actually, I can purchase salads in plastic tubs and bags that zip open and are ready to eat in far less time than it takes to nuke a frozen burrito, but I'm not sure why this would make a difference either way. What we are talking about is an effect that cuts across populations. Virtually all of them. Obesity as presently defined and measured is increasing everywhere. The problem isn't that Bob eats burritos and is a fat slob. There have always been fat slobs. The actual problem is global and systemic -- not local and individual.



    Yes, I think I understood that. I was pointing out the frequent use of "blame-the-victim" as an excusification by those who simply don't want to face up to the consequences of their own responsibilities. They'd rather just blame Bob.
    1. You stated that there was less healthy foods avaiable to people, I was merely pointing out it isn't access but ease of use the main problem. There is far far more choice in fresh produce than there was 20-30 years ago and most produce is now available year round as opposed to just being seasonal as before.
    I use those salads as well and a 1 minute for a burrito is just as fast as a premade salad salad, But the burrito will remain pretty much forever in the freezer the salad has to be consumed shortly after purchase. Same is true for pretty much all fruits/veggies if you buy fresh. If you are only 1-2 people eating unless you want squash for 3-4 days straight chances are you won't buy one often and it will take longer to cook than the burrito. same with the salads, they are good for 4 people usually or 2people 2 nights in a row. As most people shop 1X/week it is easier to avoid them or have them 2x a weeek only. BTW I'm not much of a salad guy except for certain ones my wife makes. Premade soup which tends to be high in salt is also way way more convient/consumed than homeade stuff again the ease of use seems to be the main factor here. There is also occasionally a cost factor. although fresh veggies will usually be pound for pound much cheaper than frozen premade crap some things like coke is cheaper than milk.
    All this to repeat it isn't access to good food that is the problem, it is the ease of junk food and our cultural habits that are killing us.


    2. Ok but I really didn't get that as your response to me.
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    Somebody else here already said the healthy foods are on the shelves, and they are right. There is actually more healthy food available than in the past, not less like you claim.
    When was "the past" that you refer to?

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    But people crave fat and sugar so that's what they eat. Nobody wants to feel like they are 'deprived.' Like self-control is deprivation.
    The preference for calorie-dense fat and sugar is a genetic legacy left over from our days of living in continuing peril of literally starving to death. Most of us don't face such environmental pressures anymore, but we are stuck with the legacy nonetheless and manufacturers of foodstuffs take every advantage of that. I'm sure you feel that your "self control" somehow makes you a superior person, but it does nothing to resolve the problem. You weren't obese to start out with and you still aren't. Others were obese to start out with and they still are. Actually addressing the problem will require more than your simply preaching to people that they should be more like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    You are right about the western diet. But who wants to educate himself on what's healthy and what isn't? Most people don't care enough to do that, so they get fatter, by choice, and their kids have poor role models in the diet area, so the cycle continues.
    You think it's education? Which foods do you suspect there are widespread misunderstandings and misconceptions over that could be cleared up simply through better education?

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    Anyway, people who eat unhealthy food and too much of it are not victims. Lots of people who were brought up on the meat-based diet have learned healthier ways to eat, and chose to go in a different direction. The information is out there for anybody who cares to read it.
    What's wrong with meat-based diets? Do you believe that eating meat is the cause of obesity? Do you realize that many of the most successful WEIGHT LOSS regimens are based on high-protein/low-carbohydrate diets that include tons of meat?

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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    When was "the past" that you refer to?
    Was referring to your time line:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Consumers can only buy what is available on the shelves, and that ain't what it used to be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The preference for calorie-dense fat and sugar is a genetic legacy left over from our days of living in continuing peril of literally starving to death. Most of us don't face such environmental pressures anymore, but we are stuck with the legacy nonetheless and manufacturers of foodstuffs take every advantage of that. I'm sure you feel that your "self control" somehow makes you a superior person, but it does nothing to resolve the problem. You weren't obese to start out with and you still aren't. Others were obese to start out with and they still are. Actually addressing the problem will require more than your simply preaching to people that they should be more like you.
    What the hell are you talking about? I was raised on the meat/entree based diet, or typical western diet, that we've been talking about. I gain weight very easily. But, I educated myself on what's healthy and what isn't, and I avoid weight gain by avoiding meat/dairy/chicken for the most part.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    You think it's education? Which foods do you suspect there are widespread misunderstandings and misconceptions over that could be cleared up simply through better education?


    What's wrong with meat-based diets? Do you believe that eating meat is the cause of obesity? Do you realize that many of the most successful WEIGHT LOSS regimens are based on high-protein/low-carbohydrate diets that include tons of meat?
    We can start with your education. Some of those diets you refer to work by causing ketosis, an illness. Do you know that? Do you think that's a good solution for a weight problem?

    Also, meat/dairy, etc is not required in the diet at all for a person to be healthy. You do know that, right?
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    1. You stated that there was less healthy foods avaiable to people, I was merely pointing out it isn't access but ease of use the main problem. There is far far more choice in fresh produce than there was 20-30 years ago and most produce is now available year round as opposed to just being seasonal as before.
    Well, they haven't really invented any new fruits or vegetables over the past 20-30 years. It's pretty much the same choices as always. Marketing of them has changed to a degree as the local/home-grown/all-natural niche has come into being, but produce in general is still more than merely dominated by commodity-grade crops. As to availability, the home practice of "putting up" fresh fruits and veggies in season so as to have them available out of season goes back a very long way, and the year-round availability of quality frozen foods goes back to days when freezer compartments first became common in refrigerators. And of course the produce aisle accounts for just one section of a typical supermarket and of a typical American diet. Whatever good can be said about it, the quality of a cucumber has not increased sufficiently to offset the changes noted earlier in the sorts of industrial food that line the shelves of all those other aisles and make up the bulk of people's diets. Then there is the matter of meals away from home. Have those been increasing or decreasing and why, and of what are they typically comprised?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    I use those salads as well and a 1 minute for a burrito is just as fast as a premade salad salad, But the burrito will remain pretty much forever in the freezer the salad has to be consumed shortly after purchase. Same is true for pretty much all fruits/veggies if you buy fresh. If you are only 1-2 people eating unless you want squash for 3-4 days straight chances are you won't buy one often and it will take longer to cook than the burrito. same with the salads, they are good for 4 people usually or 2people 2 nights in a row. As most people shop 1X/week it is easier to avoid them or have them 2x a weeek only.
    You're simply generalizing from your particular personal habits and experiences, things that aren't material to the systemic, population-level situation with obesity at all. In my home for instance, there aren't any burritos, and those salads are one meal for one person. And they last at least a week in the fridge. And when we want some, we have no problem at all in finding summer or winter squash suitable for one meal for 1-2 persons. But all these granular detail simply vanish when you are talking about North or South Americans as a whole, or Europeans, or Asians, or Africans, or Oceanians, and that's the level that this particular blame-the-victim diversionary discussion arises at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    All this to repeat it isn't access to good food that is the problem, it is the ease of junk food and our cultural habits that are killing us.
    Easy on the hyperbole. Even if you simply accept that a six-foot male is overweight at 184 pounds and obese at 221, being either overweight or obese in current terms is not associated with significant increases in health risks, certainly nothing that would approach a "we are killing ourselves" level, and just as certainly not a level that would make them relevant in any discussion of the necessity for health care reform. These problems are associated with the severely obese (258-294 pounds) and particularly the morbidly obese (295 pounds and up), as those names might suggest. Don't confuse the data for one group with the people in quite a different group and certainly not with people in general no matter where they live.

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