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Thread: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

  1. #251
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Costs have to be controlled, but price controls by government dictate have a poor track record so far.
    Price-Gouging by Doctors and Hospitals : HEALTH REFORM WATCH

    When patients are not protected by large private or public insurers, doctors and hospitals charge them astonishingly more than patients with Medicare or managed-care insurance. Some price difference would make sense, because insurers offer providers large volume and economies of scale. But we are not talking about discounts of 10, or 20, or even 30 percent. Providers routinely double, triple, or even quadruple prices for unprotected patients. Such huge mark-ups can only be regarded as price-gouging — exploiting market power to charge prices virtually unrelated to actual cost or market value.
    A comprehensive analysis of data hospitals report to Medicare shows that, on average, hospitals charge uninsured patients two-and-a-half times more than they charge insured patients and three times more than their actual costs. In some states mark-ups average four-fold.


    Some type of regulatory controls must be enforced if we are all to pay our own way.

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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Of course our current HC system will change. The question will be how much?
    Since even you know that the US system is changing, then even you must admit that you won't be sticking with the US system (as it is now)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #253
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Since even you know that the US system is changing, then even you must admit that you won't be sticking with the US system (as it is now)

    Oh, I think changes are coming, but I'll wait until all the issues are settled, before saying what I'll have to do.

    I do like the HC I have now and don't want to see it go away. So I will vote accordingly.

  4. #254
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Of course our current HC system will change. The question will be how much?
    Eventually, quite a lot. The bottom line is, we can't continue to spend 17% of the GDP on health care, particularly when the costs keep growing faster than the rate of inflation. We simply can't afford the current system.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  5. #255
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Price-Gouging by Doctors and Hospitals : HEALTH REFORM WATCH

    When patients are not protected by large private or public insurers, doctors and hospitals charge them astonishingly more than patients with Medicare or managed-care insurance. Some price difference would make sense, because insurers offer providers large volume and economies of scale. But we are not talking about discounts of 10, or 20, or even 30 percent. Providers routinely double, triple, or even quadruple prices for unprotected patients. Such huge mark-ups can only be regarded as price-gouging — exploiting market power to charge prices virtually unrelated to actual cost or market value.
    A comprehensive analysis of data hospitals report to Medicare shows that, on average, hospitals charge uninsured patients two-and-a-half times more than they charge insured patients and three times more than their actual costs. In some states mark-ups average four-fold.


    Some type of regulatory controls must be enforced if we are all to pay our own way.
    That's accurate. I've seen the Explanation of Medical benefits (EOMB) forms from doctors, and yes, they charge three times and more what they expect to get from the insurance company. One reason they do this is that there is a real chance that they won't wind up collecting anything at all.

    So, if that practice is outlawed, does that mean it will stop? I doubt it. I think they will come up with a way around the law.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  6. #256
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    I realize that some read only what they want to read, but I did allow as how Dittohead might be right. You should have read further on in the posts, especially my post 229. I said that Canadians might want to stay in Canada and use their HC system and quoted an article the president of the Canadian Medical Association which stated:

    Canadians contrast their health care to U.S.'s - Washington Times

    "Nevertheless, the demands on the system have led to waiting lists for treatments such as MRI scans, cataract and artery bypass surgeries and hip replacements.

    That’s one reason why 70 percent of Canadians have some form of supplemental health insurance, whether or not they plan to visit the United States.

    The Canadian system needs fixing, said Dr. Robert Ouellet, president of the Canadian Medical Association.

    “We have improved waiting times from years to months in most areas, but people still wait too long even in emergency rooms,” he said."


    So this tells me that the "regular" Canadian HC system isn't sufficient. In order to get immediate or elective medical services Canadians BUY "additional" HC policies to cover their visits to the US or private Canadian doctors. I had a family member that lived in Engalnd who tried to us their HC system and found it difficult, so they paid "for a private doctor" to obtain the same type services they enjoyed in America.

    If this sounds like a deal to you, sign up and be happy. I like seeing my doctor while I'm ill or before I die of my illiness.
    But really, why should we care about Canada's health care system? Are you from Canada? the ACA is not the same as Canada's, FYI.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
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  7. #257
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger View Post
    They are in for a big surprise because Canada's healthcare system has unbelievable waits for care.
    Why do people continue to make this unsubstantiated assertions; largely parroting something they heard elsewhere. Its called rumor spreading....

    Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    First, Canada has a public option.... many in Canada carry private insurance and see private Doctors. You do not have to use the Health Canada system, but its there for you. 57% of Canadians say they are very happy with their healthcare; compared to 25% of Americans. I can attest, having been very involved in the acquisition of four companies in Canada, that the Canadians are generally very happy with their healthcare.... they often expressed sympathies to us about how bad the American system was (their rumor)......

    Canada Health Act: Why Uninsured Americans Are Moving - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

    We have one of the most expensive, least efficient healthcare systems in the world (about 30th in the world in life expectancy and infant mortality, which given about 30-40 first world countries, puts us as the bottom, yet our healthcare costs to GDP, at about 17%, are the highest in the world). We should all be embarrassed about it....
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Why do people continue to make this unsubstantiated assertions; largely parroting something they heard elsewhere. Its called rumor spreading....

    Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    First, Canada has a public option.... many in Canada carry private insurance and see private Doctors. You do not have to use the Health Canada system, but its there for you. 57% of Canadians say they are very happy with their healthcare; compared to 25% of Americans. I can attest, having been very involved in the acquisition of four companies in Canada, that the Canadians are generally very happy with their healthcare.... they often expressed sympathies to us about how bad the American system was (their rumor)......

    Canada Health Act: Why Uninsured Americans Are Moving - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

    We have one of the most expensive, least efficient healthcare systems in the world (about 30th in the world in life expectancy and infant mortality, which given about 30-40 first world countries, puts us as the bottom, yet our healthcare costs to GDP, at about 17%, are the highest in the world). We should all be embarrassed about it....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...stems_compared

    Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the US in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S., but there is debate about the underlying causes of these differences.
    The United States and Canada have different racial makeups as well as different obesity and alcoholism rates, which would likely cause the US to have a shorter average life expectancy and higher infant mortality even with equal health care provided. The US population is 12.2% "Blacks" and 16.3% "Hispanics" (2010 Census), whereas Canada has only 2.5% African Canadians and 0.97% Hispanic Canadians (2006 Census). Blacks have higher mortality rates than any other racial or ethnic group for eight of the top ten causes of death.[8] The cancer incidence rate among African Americans is 10% higher than among European Americans.[9] U.S. Latinos have higher rates of death from diabetes, liver disease, and infectious diseases than do non-Latinos.[10] Adult African Americans and Latinos have approximately twice the risk as European Americans of developing diabetes.[9] The infant mortality rates for African Americans is twice that of whites.[11] Unfortunately, directly comparing infant mortality rates between countries is difficult, as countries have different definitions of what qualifies as an infant death. The death of an infant of an American visiting Canada is not counted as an infant death by Canada, however the successful delivery of an infant of a Canadian who is visiting the US is counted as a successful live birth by Canada, although the birth occurred outside of their country


    World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Canada ranks 30th and the US ranks 37th out of 190 countries. And all of the countries above us, have significantly smaller populations. Canada ranks as 10th in expenditure Per Capita


    But then WHO has its critics: The WHO rankings have been subject to much criticism concerning their methodology, scientificity, and usefulness. Dr Richard G. Fessler called the rankings "misleading" and said that tens of thousands of foreigners travel to the United States every year for care. In addition, he claims that the United States leads the world in survival rates for 13 of the 16 most common types of cancer. He also noted that the financial fairness measure was automatically designed to "make countries that rely on free market incentives look inferior".[3] Dr Philip Musgrove wrote that the rankings are meaningless because they oversimplify: "numbers confer a spurious precision".[4]

    Journalist John Stossel notes that the use of life expectancy figures is misleading and the life expectancy in the United States is held down by homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise. When controlled for these facts, Stossel claims that American life expectancy is actually one of the highest in the world.[5] A publication by the Pacific Research Institute in 2006 claims to have found that Americans outlive people in every other Western country, when controlled for homicides and car accidents.[6] Stossel also criticizes the ranking for favoring socialized healthcare, noting that "a country with high-quality care overall but 'unequal distribution' would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution."[5]

    Glen Whitman claims that "it looks an awful lot like someone cherry-picked the results to make the U.S.'s relative performance look worse than it is." He also notes that the rankings favor countries where individuals or families spend little of their income directly on health care.[7] In an article in The American Spectator, Whitman notes how the rankings favor government intervention, which has nothing to do with quality of care. The rankings assume literacy rate is indicative of healthcare, but ignore many factors, such as tobacco use, nutrition, and luck. Regarding the distribution factors, Whitman says "neither measures healthcare performance" since a "healthcare system [can be] characterized by both extensive inequality and good care for everyone." If healthcare improves for one group, but remains the same for the rest of the population, that would mean an increase in inequality, despite there being an improvement in quality.[8] Dr Fessler echoed these sentiments.[3]


    So should the US really be embarrassed, I guess we need a unbiased source to know that for sure.
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 07-14-12 at 03:44 AM.

  9. #259
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Good post. A couple of points

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Comparison of the health care systems in Canada and the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the US in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S., but there is debate about the underlying causes of these differences.
    The United States and Canada have different racial makeups as well as different obesity and alcoholism rates, which would likely cause the US to have a shorter average life expectancy and higher infant mortality even with equal health care provided.


    Obesity and alcoholism are health care issues. If we aren't handling those issues as well as others, then that's a deficiency with out health care system

    The US population is 12.2% "Blacks" and 16.3% "Hispanics" (2010 Census), whereas Canada has only 2.5% African Canadians and 0.97% Hispanic Canadians (2006 Census). Blacks have higher mortality rates than any other racial or ethnic group for eight of the top ten causes of death.[8] The cancer incidence rate among African Americans is 10% higher than among European Americans.[9] U.S. Latinos have higher rates of death from diabetes, liver disease, and infectious diseases than do non-Latinos.[10] Adult African Americans and Latinos have approximately twice the risk as European Americans of developing diabetes.[9] The infant mortality rates for African Americans is twice that of whites.[11] Unfortunately, directly comparing infant mortality rates between countries is difficult, as countries have different definitions of what qualifies as an infant death. The death of an infant of an American visiting Canada is not counted as an infant death by Canada, however the successful delivery of an infant of a Canadian who is visiting the US is counted as a successful live birth by Canada, although the birth occurred outside of their country
    Like obesity and alcoholism, mortality rates, cancer rates, etc and racial disparities in health care are health care issues. If we are handling these issues poorly, then that's a deficiency in our health care system


    World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Canada ranks 30th and the US ranks 37th out of 190 countries. And all of the countries above us, have significantly smaller populations. Canada ranks as 10th in expenditure Per Capita
    IIRC, we're the 3rd largest nation in the world by population and the two larger ones (China and India) are relatively poor so of course the nations above us are going to have significantly smaller populations



    Journalist John Stossel notes that the use of life expectancy figures is misleading and the life expectancy in the United States is held down by homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise. When controlled for these facts, Stossel claims that American life expectancy is actually one of the highest in the world.[5] A publication by the Pacific Research Institute in 2006 claims to have found that Americans outlive people in every other Western country, when controlled for homicides and car accidents.[6] Stossel also criticizes the ranking for favoring socialized healthcare, noting that "a country with high-quality care overall but 'unequal distribution' would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution."[5]
    Homicides, poor diet, and lack of exercise are health care issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #260
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    Re: People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Good post. A couple of points



    Obesity and alcoholism are health care issues. If we aren't handling those issues as well as others, then that's a deficiency with out health care system



    Like obesity and alcoholism, mortality rates, cancer rates, etc and racial disparities in health care are health care issues. If we are handling these issues poorly, then that's a deficiency in our health care system




    IIRC, we're the 3rd largest nation in the world by population and the two larger ones (China and India) are relatively poor so of course the nations above us are going to have significantly smaller populations





    Homicides, poor diet, and lack of exercise are health care issues.
    My point was not to make excuses for why America is not viewed as number one in healthcare world wide. I just think that making healthcare an competition sport between countries really devalues the fact that we do have good medical care in the US. Is it perfect? Hell no. But we do not need to mimic other countries to make the needed improvements. We can do things better if we do not mimic, since mimicking will only get us as far as those that we would be mimicking.

    I think that we should strive to do better than any other country rather than copy them. Which is the philosophy that has driven this country for its entire life, why stop now?
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 07-14-12 at 02:33 PM.

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