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Thread: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

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    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    I put it in Breaking News -Blogs simply because the URL includes the word "blogs" even though the article comes from CNN/Fortune. It is a long and detailed investigative piece. I'm pasting in the beginning and the end

    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

    ...

    Issa's claim that the ATF is using the Fast and Furious scandal to limit gun rights seems, to put it charitably, far-fetched. Meanwhile, Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%.
    That last sentence is rather telling, wouldn't you say?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I put it in Breaking News -Blogs simply because the URL includes the word "blogs" even though the article comes from CNN/Fortune. It is a long and detailed investigative piece. I'm pasting in the beginning and the end



    That last sentence is rather telling, wouldn't you say?
    So a federal agency headed by clueless morons is ineffective. I am shocked. You prefer that ATF be allowed to simlpy watch the guns walk? The entrie F&F is about just that, the ATF is not being scolded for stopping guns, but for watching KNOWN criminals make repeated purchases of them. To assert that normal legal activity is supplying these guns is INSANE, as the FFL dealers, as well as federal, state and local law enforcement saw the F&F guns walk, yet were ordered not to interfere. Perhaps since the ATF can no longer help the cartels get any more guns, they choose to just watch (pout?) instead?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    So a federal agency headed by clueless morons is ineffective. I am shocked. You prefer that ATF be allowed to simlpy watch the guns walk? The entrie F&F is about just that, the ATF is not being scolded for stopping guns, but for watching KNOWN criminals make repeated purchases of them. To assert that normal legal activity is supplying these guns is INSANE, as the FFL dealers, as well as federal, state and local law enforcement saw the F&F guns walk, yet were ordered not to interfere. Perhaps since the ATF can no longer help the cartels get any more guns, they choose to just watch (pout?) instead?

    Obviously you haven't bothered to read the article. Why don't you try that and then get back to us.

    How Fast and Furious reached the headlines is a strange and unsettling saga, one that reveals a lot about politics and media today. It's a story that starts with a grudge, specifically Dodson's anger at Voth.
    Dodson was an agent in the Phoenix office of ATF, Voth was his supervisor


    a bit more for your edification
    By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa's congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.

    This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime."
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    The truth of the truth is that our government is shoving it's ****ing face in someone else's national crisis as if it's our damned business - so really - business as usual.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I put it in Breaking News -Blogs simply because the URL includes the word "blogs" even though the article comes from CNN/Fortune. It is a long and detailed investigative piece. I'm pasting in the beginning and the end



    That last sentence is rather telling, wouldn't you say?


    If you're satisfied with this answer, good on ya.


    I, on the other hand, want someones "private parts" in a clamp.

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    I love how you profess to knowing the truth about an operation where the POTUS has put a lock on docs preventing anyone from knowing the truth. You have some inside source? Are you a member of the Obama legal team? If so, you're committing a federal crime. If not, you don't know the truth of this operation anymore than any other Joe Blow on the street.

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I love how you profess to knowing the truth about an operation where the POTUS has put a lock on docs preventing anyone from knowing the truth. You have some inside source? Are you a member of the Obama legal team? If so, you're committing a federal crime. If not, you don't know the truth of this operation anymore than any other Joe Blow on the street.
    This is a rather common answer from the Obama haters, one that ignores the reasoning behind the executive order. DoJ will not release documents that bear upon ongoing criminal investigations. One can shout that the White House leaks secrets all of the time but Congress's record is far worse and to allow some of the documents to be turned over to Issa and his minions would endanger future attempts to prosecute criminals.

    In truth, I think we all should back off and see how this proceeds but I know that ain't gonna happen. It has become just one more example of the contentious political scene in America.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I love how you profess to knowing the truth about an operation where the POTUS has put a lock on docs preventing anyone from knowing the truth. You have some inside source? Are you a member of the Obama legal team? If so, you're committing a federal crime. If not, you don't know the truth of this operation anymore than any other Joe Blow on the street.
    LOL

    But but - we know everything.
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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    This is a rather common answer from the Obama haters, one that ignores the reasoning behind the executive order. DoJ will not release documents that bear upon ongoing criminal investigations. One can shout that the White House leaks secrets all of the time but Congress's record is far worse and to allow some of the documents to be turned over to Issa and his minions would endanger future attempts to prosecute criminals.

    In truth, I think we all should back off and see how this proceeds but I know that ain't gonna happen. It has become just one more example of the contentious political scene in America.
    I'm still waiting to hear the official reasoning behind Obama's claim of EP in this matter. Thus far, everyone has been guessing in the press. Are you privy to new info? Have the docs asserting EP been released by the White House (not just some third party supposing the reason).

    In any event, if you're right, it's not a legitimate claim. Both the Judiciary Committee and the Oversight Committee have heard the details of not only active law enforcement activities, but active military actions, in the course of their investigations throughout the years, and throughout multiple presidential admins.

    If there's sensitive info they just close the proceeding while such info is presented. Documents concerning active LEO programs are marked as such and held as confidential.

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