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The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

Somerville

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I put it in Breaking News -Blogs simply because the URL includes the word "blogs" even though the article comes from CNN/Fortune. It is a long and detailed investigative piece. I'm pasting in the beginning and the end

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

...

Issa's claim that the ATF is using the Fast and Furious scandal to limit gun rights seems, to put it charitably, far-fetched. Meanwhile, Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%.

That last sentence is rather telling, wouldn't you say?
 
I put it in Breaking News -Blogs simply because the URL includes the word "blogs" even though the article comes from CNN/Fortune. It is a long and detailed investigative piece. I'm pasting in the beginning and the end



That last sentence is rather telling, wouldn't you say?

So a federal agency headed by clueless morons is ineffective. I am shocked. You prefer that ATF be allowed to simlpy watch the guns walk? The entrie F&F is about just that, the ATF is not being scolded for stopping guns, but for watching KNOWN criminals make repeated purchases of them. To assert that normal legal activity is supplying these guns is INSANE, as the FFL dealers, as well as federal, state and local law enforcement saw the F&F guns walk, yet were ordered not to interfere. Perhaps since the ATF can no longer help the cartels get any more guns, they choose to just watch (pout?) instead?
 
So a federal agency headed by clueless morons is ineffective. I am shocked. You prefer that ATF be allowed to simlpy watch the guns walk? The entrie F&F is about just that, the ATF is not being scolded for stopping guns, but for watching KNOWN criminals make repeated purchases of them. To assert that normal legal activity is supplying these guns is INSANE, as the FFL dealers, as well as federal, state and local law enforcement saw the F&F guns walk, yet were ordered not to interfere. Perhaps since the ATF can no longer help the cartels get any more guns, they choose to just watch (pout?) instead?


Obviously you haven't bothered to read the article. Why don't you try that and then get back to us.

How Fast and Furious reached the headlines is a strange and unsettling saga, one that reveals a lot about politics and media today. It's a story that starts with a grudge, specifically Dodson's anger at Voth.

Dodson was an agent in the Phoenix office of ATF, Voth was his supervisor


a bit more for your edification
By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa's congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.

This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime."
 
The truth of the truth is that our government is shoving it's ****ing face in someone else's national crisis as if it's our damned business - so really - business as usual.
 
I put it in Breaking News -Blogs simply because the URL includes the word "blogs" even though the article comes from CNN/Fortune. It is a long and detailed investigative piece. I'm pasting in the beginning and the end



That last sentence is rather telling, wouldn't you say?



If you're satisfied with this answer, good on ya.


I, on the other hand, want someones "private parts" in a clamp.
 
I love how you profess to knowing the truth about an operation where the POTUS has put a lock on docs preventing anyone from knowing the truth. You have some inside source? Are you a member of the Obama legal team? If so, you're committing a federal crime. If not, you don't know the truth of this operation anymore than any other Joe Blow on the street.
 
I love how you profess to knowing the truth about an operation where the POTUS has put a lock on docs preventing anyone from knowing the truth. You have some inside source? Are you a member of the Obama legal team? If so, you're committing a federal crime. If not, you don't know the truth of this operation anymore than any other Joe Blow on the street.

This is a rather common answer from the Obama haters, one that ignores the reasoning behind the executive order. DoJ will not release documents that bear upon ongoing criminal investigations. One can shout that the White House leaks secrets all of the time but Congress's record is far worse and to allow some of the documents to be turned over to Issa and his minions would endanger future attempts to prosecute criminals.

In truth, I think we all should back off and see how this proceeds but I know that ain't gonna happen. It has become just one more example of the contentious political scene in America.
 
I love how you profess to knowing the truth about an operation where the POTUS has put a lock on docs preventing anyone from knowing the truth. You have some inside source? Are you a member of the Obama legal team? If so, you're committing a federal crime. If not, you don't know the truth of this operation anymore than any other Joe Blow on the street.

LOL

But but - we know everything.
 
This is a rather common answer from the Obama haters, one that ignores the reasoning behind the executive order. DoJ will not release documents that bear upon ongoing criminal investigations. One can shout that the White House leaks secrets all of the time but Congress's record is far worse and to allow some of the documents to be turned over to Issa and his minions would endanger future attempts to prosecute criminals.

In truth, I think we all should back off and see how this proceeds but I know that ain't gonna happen. It has become just one more example of the contentious political scene in America.

I'm still waiting to hear the official reasoning behind Obama's claim of EP in this matter. Thus far, everyone has been guessing in the press. Are you privy to new info? Have the docs asserting EP been released by the White House (not just some third party supposing the reason).

In any event, if you're right, it's not a legitimate claim. Both the Judiciary Committee and the Oversight Committee have heard the details of not only active law enforcement activities, but active military actions, in the course of their investigations throughout the years, and throughout multiple presidential admins.

If there's sensitive info they just close the proceeding while such info is presented. Documents concerning active LEO programs are marked as such and held as confidential.
 
This is a rather common answer from the Obama haters, one that ignores the reasoning behind the executive order. DoJ will not release documents that bear upon ongoing criminal investigations. One can shout that the White House leaks secrets all of the time but Congress's record is far worse and to allow some of the documents to be turned over to Issa and his minions would endanger future attempts to prosecute criminals.

In truth, I think we all should back off and see how this proceeds but I know that ain't gonna happen. It has become just one more example of the contentious political scene in America.

The bottom line is that the AZ/Mexico border is wide open so stopping drugs/people comming in or guns/cash going out is virtually unimpeded. This makes AZ the stop & shop (& drop) for all sorts of cartel criminal activity. What is NOT included is any talk of a need to secure the U.S./Mexico border. As long as we pretend that this is NOT the "root cause" of criminals choosing this area as a base of operations.

The story also mentions, MANY times, the desire for stricter gun laws. At some point these weapons MUST cross the border, or be used in a criminal manner in the U.S.; THAT crime, rather than the buying of the weapons from FFL dealers in AZ, (that THEY KNEW WAS MOSTLY LEGAL) is what should be addressed. Stopping ALL gun sales in AZ would do nothing but have these guns bought in another state (or country), and like dominoes, we would then have "gun control". It was more the definition of the problem (wide open border) that was missed, rather than the insanity of the chosen solution (see if we can track everyone dealing with bad guys), IMHO.

From the OP source story:

As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."

What must "never happen again" is to leave OUR border wide open an express shock that criminals would dare to take advantage of it. AZ, to my knowledge, has never complianed about gun sales but wants the border secured and illegal aliens deported, yet the federal "help" was to mess with gun buying, and they even blew that.
 
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The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."

This is one reason the congressional committee has demanded all the emails from DOJ. Did they get caught in a lie? Is this why they reversed themselves? The public and congressional oversight committee have a right to know.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

What’s common knowledge in this case is that some FFL dealers were coerced to sell to straw buyers by the BATFE.

Weren't allowed to be trafficked? Call it what you want, this is a matter of semantics. These "straw purchased" guns were allowed to cross the international border with Mexico and get to drug cartels.

At best this is disgraceful incompetence; at worst criminal activity. Another reason Holder is being pressured to release all the documents.
 
A day ahead of a vote to find Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) said his committee is no longer even strongly suspicious that highest ranking law enforcement officer in the country knew that guns “walked” during the botched ATF operation known as Fast and Furious.

and

Issa’s position on Holder’s knowledge of the tactics used is a reversal of what he claimed when he began his investigation last year, when he said the tactics went “all the way to the very top.” The California Republican has admitted to exploring “blind alleys” over the course of the investigation.

more at TalkingPointsMemo.com


Dem Video Mocks Issa’s Fast And Furious ‘Blind Alleys’
 
Holder let the truth slip out and it reinforces the theory that fast and furious was part of a scheme, a plot even. This cover up may indeed be what brings obama down.

"This administration has consistently favored the reinstitution of the assault weapons ban. It is something that we think was useful in the past with regard to the reduction that we’ve seen in crime, and certainly would have a positive impact on our relationship and the crime situation in Mexico."

Read more: Holder tells Congress the Obama administration wants to ban guns | The Daily Caller
 
Outside of the hardcore conservative base, I see precious few who even know what this is let alone care about it.
 
No...the 'truth' is that the people in the DoJ are incompetent and are acting like children. This looks just like a child that gets caught doing something incredibly stupid and instead of simply owning up to it then lies, and lies, and lies some more to avoid responsibility to the point where eventually what happened isnt really all that relevant anymore and what really matters is how reprehensible and dishonest they are being ABOUT the original incident.

On the plus side it HAS been comical watching Holder on video trying to use the Jedi Mind trick under oath.
 
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

...

Issa's claim that the ATF is using the Fast and Furious scandal to limit gun rights seems, to put it charitably, far-fetched. Meanwhile, Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%.

This F&F case has taken so many twists and turns it's very difficult to keep up with the day-to-day accounts. However, the items in red caught my attention and should make everyone take heed. "No permanent leadership within the ATF and no tracking mechanism to account for the flow of guns across the US/Mexican border!?! That's a new on for me especially given the US has been fighting the "war on drugs" since the Reagan era. You'd think that with all the hype surrounding this gun-walking debackle even Republicans would willing to appropriate funds to create a database that tracks the sale of guns. It's not a matter of trying to keep guns out of people's hands but rather knowing who sold what to whom which ironically is the center focal point of F&F - that the Fed lost track of who purchased the weapons. (Of course, that has morphed into who was more or less truthful about what they knew and when they knew it.)
 
Good point, the mainstrem liberal media has done an excellent job covering this up.

Your own right wing media has sold everything from Death Panels to Black Panthers stopping whites from voting to taxation is theft. Why can't they sell this particular product to the people?
 
Holder let the truth slip out and it reinforces the theory that fast and furious was part of a scheme, a plot even. This cover up may indeed be what brings obama down.

"This administration has consistently favored the reinstitution of the assault weapons ban. It is something that we think was useful in the past with regard to the reduction that we’ve seen in crime, and certainly would have a positive impact on our relationship and the crime situation in Mexico."

Read more: Holder tells Congress the Obama administration wants to ban guns | The Daily Caller

Okay...:shrug:

I don't see a problem with banning assault weapons as part of personal protection measures. I mean, why do you need one for self-protection? There are plenty of automatic and semi-automatic hand guns that can do the job of knocking a home invader flat on his back if not put a hole in his chest larger than the Grand Canyon (okay, sarcasm, but you get the point). Of course, those who vehemently defend their 2nd Amendment rights will certainly bring up the "militia clause". Still, I say you don't need a tank, a .50 caliber machine gun, land mines, and the like to defend yourself or your property from invaders. A Glock 9mm semi-auto hand gun will do the job just fine. Of course, if you're a hunter or a gun/weapons collector that's a different story. But the sale of these and other such weapons should still be tracked if for no other reason than to help keep them off the streets and out of the hands of criminals.
 
Just for the heck of it, here is the opinion of The Logical Party of which I am one of extremely few members. We're no fun because logic has no passion. Indeed, logic is such a dated concept that I haven't seen any widespread application in years.

Fast and Furious. Our President focuses on what he likes to do. He likes inventing new programs for the poor. He likes being involved in social justice. He likes to be a Politician, which he is fabulous at (first black president - amazing). He doesn't have much interest in law enforcement and I can't tell if Holder is any good at his supposed job. So, an agency like the ATFE can fall into disarray quite easily.

Some genius decided to let some weapons go, a drop in the bucket really, and track them. Yeah, like thats gonna work. Since there is a definite lack of management, this had some consequences.

Now, they're being asked to show the world exactly how stupid they are. Thats embarrassing and no doubt a few well entrenched officials would lose their jobs. So, they simply declare it a giant secret and stonewall. This has happened before.

The idea that there is some underlying plot against the second amendment is soi far fetched. These guys cant find their ass with both hands and they figured out some incredibly indirect route to tamper with one of the many issues Obama avoids.

It's just bureaucrats at work and play.
 
Just for the heck of it, here is the opinion of The Logical Party of which I am one of extremely few members. We're no fun because logic has no passion. Indeed, logic is such a dated concept that I haven't seen any widespread application in years.

Fast and Furious. Our President focuses on what he likes to do. He likes inventing new programs for the poor. He likes being involved in social justice. He likes to be a Politician, which he is fabulous at (first black president - amazing). He doesn't have much interest in law enforcement and I can't tell if Holder is any good at his supposed job. So, an agency like the ATFE can fall into disarray quite easily.

Some genius decided to let some weapons go, a drop in the bucket really, and track them. Yeah, like thats gonna work. Since there is a definite lack of management, this had some consequences.

Now, they're being asked to show the world exactly how stupid they are. Thats embarrassing and no doubt a few well entrenched officials would lose their jobs. So, they simply declare it a giant secret and stonewall. This has happened before.

The idea that there is some underlying plot against the second amendment is soi far fetched. These guys cant find their ass with both hands and they figured out some incredibly indirect route to tamper with one of the many issues Obama avoids.

It's just bureaucrats at work and play.

there was a logical party this whole time and no one told me:shock:
 
The bottom line is that the AZ/Mexico border is wide open so stopping drugs/people comming in or guns/cash going out is virtually unimpeded. This makes AZ the stop & shop (& drop) for all sorts of cartel criminal activity. What is NOT included is any talk of a need to secure the U.S./Mexico border. As long as we pretend that this is NOT the "root cause" of criminals choosing this area as a base of operations.

The story also mentions, MANY times, the desire for stricter gun laws. At some point these weapons MUST cross the border, or be used in a criminal manner in the U.S.; THAT crime, rather than the buying of the weapons from FFL dealers in AZ, (that THEY KNEW WAS MOSTLY LEGAL) is what should be addressed. Stopping ALL gun sales in AZ would do nothing but have these guns bought in another state (or country), and like dominoes, we would then have "gun control".

I disagree. What makes enforcement so incredibly difficult is Arizona's incredibly lax gun laws. There is no limit on how many long guns can be sold to a single purchaser at one go -- not even a reporting requirement for bulk purchases -- and there is no law against concealed carry (no license required).

btw, you won't hear any testimony about gun control at the hearings because Issa has specifically prohibited it. He has also denied every Democratic request for hearings and to call witnesses. But this is NOT a partisan witch hunt.... :roll:
 
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