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Thread: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

  1. #11
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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    This is a rather common answer from the Obama haters, one that ignores the reasoning behind the executive order. DoJ will not release documents that bear upon ongoing criminal investigations. One can shout that the White House leaks secrets all of the time but Congress's record is far worse and to allow some of the documents to be turned over to Issa and his minions would endanger future attempts to prosecute criminals.

    In truth, I think we all should back off and see how this proceeds but I know that ain't gonna happen. It has become just one more example of the contentious political scene in America.
    The bottom line is that the AZ/Mexico border is wide open so stopping drugs/people comming in or guns/cash going out is virtually unimpeded. This makes AZ the stop & shop (& drop) for all sorts of cartel criminal activity. What is NOT included is any talk of a need to secure the U.S./Mexico border. As long as we pretend that this is NOT the "root cause" of criminals choosing this area as a base of operations.

    The story also mentions, MANY times, the desire for stricter gun laws. At some point these weapons MUST cross the border, or be used in a criminal manner in the U.S.; THAT crime, rather than the buying of the weapons from FFL dealers in AZ, (that THEY KNEW WAS MOSTLY LEGAL) is what should be addressed. Stopping ALL gun sales in AZ would do nothing but have these guns bought in another state (or country), and like dominoes, we would then have "gun control". It was more the definition of the problem (wide open border) that was missed, rather than the insanity of the chosen solution (see if we can track everyone dealing with bad guys), IMHO.

    From the OP source story:

    As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."

    What must "never happen again" is to leave OUR border wide open an express shock that criminals would dare to take advantage of it. AZ, to my knowledge, has never complianed about gun sales but wants the border secured and illegal aliens deported, yet the federal "help" was to mess with gun buying, and they even blew that.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-27-12 at 09:19 PM.
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  2. #12
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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

    As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."
    This is one reason the congressional committee has demanded all the emails from DOJ. Did they get caught in a lie? Is this why they reversed themselves? The public and congressional oversight committee have a right to know.

    Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.
    What’s common knowledge in this case is that some FFL dealers were coerced to sell to straw buyers by the BATFE.

    Weren't allowed to be trafficked? Call it what you want, this is a matter of semantics. These "straw purchased" guns were allowed to cross the international border with Mexico and get to drug cartels.

    At best this is disgraceful incompetence; at worst criminal activity. Another reason Holder is being pressured to release all the documents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    LOL

    But but - we know everything.
    Spoken like a woman.
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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    A day ahead of a vote to find Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) said his committee is no longer even strongly suspicious that highest ranking law enforcement officer in the country knew that guns “walked” during the botched ATF operation known as Fast and Furious.
    and

    Issa’s position on Holder’s knowledge of the tactics used is a reversal of what he claimed when he began his investigation last year, when he said the tactics went “all the way to the very top.” The California Republican has admitted to exploring “blind alleys” over the course of the investigation.
    more at TalkingPointsMemo.com


    Dem Video Mocks Issa’s Fast And Furious ‘Blind Alleys’
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Holder let the truth slip out and it reinforces the theory that fast and furious was part of a scheme, a plot even. This cover up may indeed be what brings obama down.

    "This administration has consistently favored the reinstitution of the assault weapons ban. It is something that we think was useful in the past with regard to the reduction that we’ve seen in crime, and certainly would have a positive impact on our relationship and the crime situation in Mexico."

    Read more: Holder tells Congress the Obama administration wants to ban guns | The Daily Caller

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Outside of the hardcore conservative base, I see precious few who even know what this is let alone care about it.
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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    No...the 'truth' is that the people in the DoJ are incompetent and are acting like children. This looks just like a child that gets caught doing something incredibly stupid and instead of simply owning up to it then lies, and lies, and lies some more to avoid responsibility to the point where eventually what happened isnt really all that relevant anymore and what really matters is how reprehensible and dishonest they are being ABOUT the original incident.

    On the plus side it HAS been comical watching Holder on video trying to use the Jedi Mind trick under oath.

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Outside of the hardcore conservative base, I see precious few who even know what this is let alone care about it.
    Good point, the mainstrem liberal media has done an excellent job covering this up.

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Outside of the hardcore conservative base, I see precious few who even know what this is let alone care about it.
    nor should we.

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    Re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

    Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

    ...

    Issa's claim that the ATF is using the Fast and Furious scandal to limit gun rights seems, to put it charitably, far-fetched. Meanwhile, Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%. This F&F case has taken so many twists and turns it's very difficult to keep up with the day-to-day accounts. However, the items in red caught my attention and should make everyone take heed. "No permanent leadership within the ATF and no tracking mechanism to account for the flow of guns across the US/Mexican border!?! That's a new on for me especially given the US has been fighting the "war on drugs" since the Reagan era. You'd think that with all the hype surrounding this gun-walking debackle even Republicans would willing to appropriate funds to create a database that tracks the sale of guns. It's not a matter of trying to keep guns out of people's hands but rather knowing who sold what to whom which ironically is the center focal point of F&F - that the Fed lost track of who purchased the weapons. (Of course, that has morphed into who was more or less truthful about what they knew and when they knew it.)

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