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Thread: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

  1. #121
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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I would have to be pushed very, very far in order to ever draw a gun on a cop. I can't even express the dire circumstances that would have to exist.

    I think your average gun owner is a reasonable person, and I think that if anyone came here and started spouting off about rights and big government, that they're just playing silly debate games and venting their daily frustrations though this thread. 99% of the time people just say things to either feel better or to get a rise out of you. No law-abiding citizen is going to shoot a cop for sticking their head in a car window, or for trespassing. I think your typical gun owner is like me and would even knowingly allow a cop to commit some level of crime against them and then call their lawyer afterwords, instead of pull a gun on the cop at the time, even if the citizen were well within their rights to do so.

    The other side of that coin is the rare bad apple who abuses his authority as a police officer to commit crime. This is an extreme minority among police, and even among those rare few who would ever abuse their authority, fewer actually do, and of those, fewer still do anything which would warrant lethal force. I would be very surprised if this law applies to even 1 incident in the next 10 years.
    I will expand on this. I wouldn't even be tempted to shoot an officer for simply trying to look into my vehicle, however there are things I expect. I want to know why I was pulled over, speeding, illegal lane change, etc. fine, if I am in a high crime area and the officer wants to ask questions, fine, if he asks to look inside my vehicle no problem. I do not have any respect for an officer that doesn't have the basic courtesy to explain the situation and then starts demanding I do things like allow him to search, I will not cooperate, and anything that happens(I probably won't pull) will be between the attorney representing me in a lawsuit and the police department, I will likely only ask for the officers job.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I will expand on this. I wouldn't even be tempted to shoot an officer for simply trying to look into my vehicle, however there are things I expect. I want to know why I was pulled over, speeding, illegal lane change, etc. fine, if I am in a high crime area and the officer wants to ask questions, fine, if he asks to look inside my vehicle no problem. I do not have any respect for an officer that doesn't have the basic courtesy to explain the situation and then starts demanding I do things like allow him to search, I will not cooperate, and anything that happens(I probably won't pull) will be between the attorney representing me in a lawsuit and the police department, I will likely only ask for the officers job.
    I completely agree. There are to many loud-mouthed pro-gun radicals out there that will give the casual reader the impression that your typical, average gun owner wants to kill a cop any time they step out of line however slight.

    If a citizen is actually being wronged by a cop (which can happen from time to time, and is why cops have wrongful arrest insurance), there's a process to deal with it. A citizen has the right to request the cop's supervisor at the scene, to be told why they were pulled over, to check badge numbers, etc. As you said, getting your lawyer is going to be the appropriate coarse of action.

    But lethal force? That's a whole different animal.

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I completely agree. There are to many loud-mouthed pro-gun radicals out there that will give the casual reader the impression that your typical, average gun owner wants to kill a cop any time they step out of line however slight.

    If a citizen is actually being wronged by a cop (which can happen from time to time, and is why cops have wrongful arrest insurance), there's a process to deal with it. A citizen has the right to request the cop's supervisor at the scene, to be told why they were pulled over, to check badge numbers, etc. As you said, getting your lawyer is going to be the appropriate coarse of action.

    But lethal force? That's a whole different animal.
    I think the only way I would pull is if the officer's actions made it clear that my life or safety depended on complying with unreasonable and illegal demands. I'm not a gun owner to shoot people just for being assholes though, if that were the case I'd have been in prison long ago.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by Mya View Post
    They must be joking in Indiana


    “Indiana has become the first state to legally allow residents to shoot at police if they feel their property is being illegally breached by an officer.”



    New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police - National Coast to Coast Radio | Examiner.com

    I think the key word here is "illegal breach". Seems to me the police should take the time, if they're told by the occupants they have the wrong address, to verifiy their data.

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    since I have defended a major league police department-yes sometimes the "mistakes" are intentional.
    Doesnt get bigger than mine and IVE NEVER heard of a raid on the wrong place being carried out INTENTIONALLY

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Doesnt get bigger than mine and IVE NEVER heard of a raid on the wrong place being carried out INTENTIONALLY
    Read the link TD posted to me, it was BATF so it was federal not local. But there was obvious intent to do wrong by those agents to anyone who reads it.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Don't see the problem with a law the reaffirms an Amendment.

    Unless it does not and contorts the meaning and spirit of the letter of the law. No where in the forth amendment does it say, "A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary".

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."~ 4th Amendment

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If some punk is running from the cops and tried to seek refuge in my home, 1. I'm going to kill him, 2. I want the cops there asap because I have a criminal in my home, and 3. the punk should want the cops there asap also because I'm going to kill him.

    I'm not going to shoot the cops. I'm going to open the door, flag the cops down and serve them coffee while we wait for the coroner.

    The tough guy talk is humorous.

    If a punk running from the police ran into my home I'd throw him to the floor and tell him he was under arrest, then given him my version of Miranda. "Shut up, don't move and no one gets hurt." Then again I can arrest people. I go well out of my way with deliberate effort not to kill or even seriously hurt anyone for the last few years and certainly since putting on a badge. Prior I hurt a lot of people. In general, I go to great lengths not to even write tickets, let alone arrest anyone.

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I would have to be pushed very, very far in order to ever draw a gun on a cop. I can't even express the dire circumstances that would have to exist.

    I think your average gun owner is a reasonable person, and I think that if anyone came here and started spouting off about rights and big government, that they're just playing silly debate games and venting their daily frustrations though this thread. 99% of the time people just say things to either feel better or to get a rise out of you. No law-abiding citizen is going to shoot a cop for sticking their head in a car window, or for trespassing. I think your typical gun owner is like me and would even knowingly allow a cop to commit some level of crime against them and then call their lawyer afterwords, instead of pull a gun on the cop at the time, even if the citizen were well within their rights to do so.

    The other side of that coin is the rare bad apple who abuses his authority as a police officer to commit crime. This is an extreme minority among police, and even among those rare few who would ever abuse their authority, fewer actually do, and of those, fewer still do anything which would warrant lethal force. I would be very surprised if this law applies to even 1 incident in the next 10 years.

    There are bad cops and I've had a few confrontations with a few with myself as an officer. Prior to this, I was extremely docile towards police as they poised great risk and their attitude of me mattered greatly on an individual level. I was detained, questioned and arrested many a time for the topics of assault or aggravated assault (but never with a weapon). It was rarely a question of what I had done being legal, only how much I had done it. That is very abstract in law as it involves the word "reasonable." What is that? Its up to the officers (or DA) to decide what was "reasonable force." Never taken to trial and no convictions.

    What a person may or may not do in relation to a bad cop is very problematical if violence or weapons become involved. If SWAT comes charging into your house even in total error such as wrong address, there is no good outcome possible for whoever is in that house.

    I recall a case, I think years ago, when a small SWAT team went charging into a C-store believing a robber was in there. The clerk, an older woman, only saw men with guns and in black outfits come running towards and then into the store, for which she grabbed a large caliber revolver under the counter and open fired, killing one of the SWAT team. She said she had no idea they were cops and thought they were radicals charging in to rob her and probably kill her. No charges were filled against her.

    Personally, while a SWAT team should have full protective gear, the black and other para-military Ninja-type clothing needs to be prohibited. They don't look like cops. They look like terrorists.
    Last edited by joko104; 06-14-12 at 11:33 PM.

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    Re: New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    They don't look like cops. They look like terrorists.
    Terrorists don't wear uniforms.

    In fact, terrorists don't wear identifying clothing of any kind, apart from the light-blue burka.

    Terrorists look just like everyone else.
    Last edited by Jerry; 06-15-12 at 04:41 AM.

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