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Thread: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

  1. #61
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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251, replying to another View Post
    [...] It was Bush who DECIMATED the Clinton surplus. (You remember the Clinton surplus, right?)
    This would be true if you applied 2009 as belonging to Bush [...]
    It would be true regardless of 2009. Or 2008 for that matter. Figures don't lie. I have heard it said, however, that liars figure

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost, replying to another View Post
    This would be true if you applied 2009 as belonging to Bush, when he didnt sign the budget and didnt sign the stimulus. If you apply it to Obama, who signed the 2009 budget then yes the deficit was doubled from 400some billion to over 1 trillion.

    A lot on the left seem to want to repeat the lie that the 2009 budget belongs to Bush. Thats a false statement.
    Are you familiar with the term "fiscal year", and how it applies to the federal budget?

    If so, then let's turn our attention to revenues. While the Bush budget envisioned a deficit of $400 billion, revenues fell $600 billion short of projections due to the Bush recession, which, unless you want to blame that on Obama, means that the actual deficit of the Bush budget, as proposed, was $1,000 billion.

    If you want to account the additional $400 billion in spending over and above what Bush originally proposed, to Obama, then that would make

    Obama 'responsible' for $400 billion of the 2009 deficit and

    Bush 'responsible' for $1,000 billion of the 2009 deficit (double the $450 billion deficit the Bush budget rang up in 2008, which was actually $962 billion if you measure the increase in total outstanding debt for FY 2008 -- $9.06 trillion to $10.02 trillion... Mr. Bush was clearly running a lot of stuff -- like 2 wars -- 'off budget').
    Last edited by Karl; 06-22-12 at 12:17 AM.

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Are you familiar with the term "fiscal year", and how it applies to the federal budget?

    If so, then let's turn our attention to revenues. While the Bush budget envisioned a deficit of $400 billion, revenues fell $600 billion short of projections due to the Bush recession, which, unless you want to blame that on Obama, means that the actual deficit of the Bush budget, as proposed, was $1,000 billion.

    If you want to account the additional $400 billion in spending over and above what Bush originally proposed, to Obama, then that would make

    Obama 'responsible' for $400 billion of the 2009 deficit and

    Bush 'responsible' for $1,000 billion of the 2009 deficit (double the $450 billion deficit the Bush budget rang up in 2008, which was actually $962 billion if you measure the increase in total outstanding debt for FY 2008 -- $9.06 trillion to $10.02 trillion).
    This is known as selective use of the facts.

    Bush proposed a $400billion dollar deficit budget.
    The totally Democrat controlled congress gave Obama an $800billion dollar deficit budget.
    Obama signed it.
    Stimulus was passed under Obama, signed by Obama, added another $787 billion dollars to the deficit.

    Bush increased spending. Obama increased spending more. Get over it. Stop regurgitating stone-stupid, partisan talking points that are deflated quicker than Euro money infusions to Greece banks. Obama is a tax and spend politician. He always has been and probably always will be. The only time he deigns to pay attention to the private sector is to see how he can wring more money from it.

    Onward to revenue. Im not blaming anyone for the revenue drop. Its unavoidable, not to mention largely unpredictable. Ive got a better question for you. At what point do you hold Obama responsible for the lack of growth in the economy? And to what degree? Lets face it, I dont think Bush did ANYTHING that a more liberal President wouldnt have done with regards to finance and the housing market, directly to the point, liberals were dead set against further regulation of the housing market or the financial industry....until they crashed. Then the long knives came out. But I digress, so how much is Obama responsible for in the economy and when?

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost, replying to another. View Post
    You and politfact are full of ****. [...] Im calling BS on you and Politifact.
    Then you're also calling it on the CBO and "Economists [...] Josh Gordon, policy director for the Concord Coalition1, and Brian Riedl, lead budget analyst of the conservative Heritage Foundation".

    Smells like irrational denial to me.

    Ref: PolitiFact | Obama inherited deficits from Bush administration

    1. The Concord Coalition [...] mission statement is to educate "the public about the causes and consequences of federal budget deficits, the long-term challenges facing America's unsustainable entitlement programs, and how to build a sound foundation for economic growth." Concord Coalition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    This is known as selective use of the facts. [...]
    That is an excellent description of your argument. Add denial, as I showed above, and the recipe is complete.

    Stimulus was spent over a period of about three years, meaning of course that it would not be added to the ledger all in one fell swoop (e.g., in one fiscal year), proving that you are simply making up your argument as you go along with no consideration or acknowledgement of how things work in the real world. Something you may now realize is failing, since you are now trying to change the subject away from fact to opinion.

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Concorde Coalition is a center left think tank.

    Just a heads up but government appropriations are distinctly NOT the real world. As soon as the appropriations are done it goes into that year. The actual spending may occur later but if its not a budgetary line item it goes into the budget year its appropriated---IE 2009.

    Saying its a given fiscal year and all responsibility goes to the previous year's President would be the case in normal circumstances. However, thats not quite how it played out. Are you willing to say Obama bears no responsibility for a budget he signed? A budget that increased the FY spending by $400B before the stimulus?

    As for your opinion comments, where are we again? A political forum, where a lot of opinions are tossed about, one holding about as much weight as anyone else's, appeals to anything and everything aside. I call your opinions as I see them, youre welcome to do the same, but stop whining about me doing essentially the same thing as you--voicing my opinion.

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    As for your opinion comments, where are we again? A political forum, where a lot of opinions are tossed about, one holding about as much weight as anyone else's, appeals to anything and everything aside.
    How can you possibly expect to regain the high ground in this debate when you can't even distinguish between opinions and facts? Your position is getting crushed--not by Karl, nor by anyone else, but by facts. Cold, hard facts.

    Obama inherited a $1.3-trillion deficit, period, end of discussion. There is zero wiggle room here. To argue against that makes as much sense as arguing that the Earth is flat.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    How can you possibly expect to regain the high ground in this debate when you can't even distinguish between opinions and facts? Your position is getting crushed--not by Karl, nor by anyone else, but by facts. Cold, hard facts.

    Obama inherited a $1.3-trillion deficit, period, end of discussion. There is zero wiggle room here. To argue against that makes as much sense as arguing that the Earth is flat.
    And how much is the deficit now?

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    And how much is the deficit now?
    Practically unchanged, despite the downturn.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    How can you possibly expect to regain the high ground in this debate when you can't even distinguish between opinions and facts? Your position is getting crushed--not by Karl, nor by anyone else, but by facts. Cold, hard facts.

    Obama inherited a $1.3-trillion deficit, period, end of discussion. There is zero wiggle room here. To argue against that makes as much sense as arguing that the Earth is flat.
    LOL. He signed a budget that raised the annual deficit by 400B to 800B then off budget spending increased by another 800B that same year. THOSE are facts.

    He did inherit a bad situation, he allowed the congress to direct the spending of the stimulus and he increased a liberal pet projects as targets for his budget increases. Those increases are not paying off in terms of economic growth. His leadership in how to deal with the situation and his approach is not creating the growth we would all like to see.

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