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Thread: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    That Obama debt half-truth is being pushed as 100% blatant lie from his camp right now. Lowest spending *increase* is being conflated with lowest spending ever, and even worse, it's only the lowest increase if you discount all of 2009 and add that year to Bush's figures. It's a lie on top of a lie. And people are just soaking it up, repeating it like gospel. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
    We're repeating FACTS? Gosh, you're right, we'd better rethink this. Better to take a page from the serial liar known as Mitt Romney and brag about the Obama income tax hike, Obama's Muslim faith, Obama's Kenyan birth, and all sorts of other things that absolutely, categorically, never happened.
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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    We're repeating FACTS? Gosh, you're right, we'd better rethink this. Better to take a page from the serial liar known as Mitt Romney and brag about the Obama income tax hike, Obama's Muslim faith, Obama's Kenyan birth, and all sorts of other things that absolutely, categorically, never happened.
    Nice redirect. But it doesn't change the fact that Obama's spending is the highest ever, nor that people are repeating the lie that it's the lowest. The awful Nutting article entitled "Obama lowest spender in decades" relies on a chart as evidence called "Slowest spending in decades, annualized growth of federal spending." The title is a lie exposed by the data, and the data within is also a lie exposed by its own methodology. You have to throw 2009 right out in order for Nutting's conclusion to follow. It's like some people don't understand English well enough to define the words "low" and "slow," or how the apostrophe attributes ownership when attached to someone's name.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Nice redirect. But it doesn't change the fact that Obama's spending is the highest ever, nor that people are repeating the lie that it's the lowest. The awful Nutting article entitled "Obama lowest spender in decades" relies on a chart as evidence called "Slowest spending in decades, annualized growth of federal spending." The title is a lie exposed by the data, and the data within is also a lie exposed by its own methodology. You have to throw 2009 right out in order for Nutting's conclusion to follow. It's like some people don't understand English well enough to define the words "low" and "slow," or how the apostrophe attributes ownership when attached to someone's name.
    And you just lied there. I clearly said lowest INCREASE, NOT lowest spending. If you want to try to make a fact-based claim, you would be better off using facts. Here is a precise measurement that shows the truth of Obama's statement. The only thing he got wrong was the inflation factor, but even with that, he's second-best after Eisenhower. Not bad company.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    And you just lied there. I clearly said lowest INCREASE, NOT lowest spending. If you want to try to make a fact-based claim, you would be better off using facts. Here is a precise measurement that shows the truth of Obama's statement. The only thing he got wrong was the inflation factor, but even with that, he's second-best after Eisenhower. Not bad company.
    That is a clever "single factor" way of viewing the matter, yet ignores reality completely. Federal spending spiked in 2008/2009 due to TARP, making that level the "Obama" base line, so yes, AFTER that level was established, no FURTHER massive spending increases were required to keep the massive federal spending alive and well. But if you use the AVERAGE Bush federal spending 2001 to 2008 (20% of GDP), and the AVERAGE Obama federal spending 2009 to 2012 (24% of GDP), then you CAN say that Obama INDEED raised federal spending by 20% over that of Bush, yet kept the federal taxation rate (17% of GDP) the same. The nonsense of the federal spending "percentage of increase" argument is then exposed as the lie it is.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-15-12 at 07:32 PM.
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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Oh, that's right, he was expected to raise a billion for this campaign. And your complaining about the Republications?
    With this. Yes. I complain about both sides.


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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is a clever "single factor" way of viewing the matter, yet ignores reality completely. Federal spending spiked in 2008/2009 due to TARP, making that level the "Obama" base line, so yes, AFTER that level was established, no FURTHER massive spending increases were required to keep the massive federal spending alive and well. But if you use the AVERAGE Bush federal spending 2001 to 2008 (20% of GDP), and the AVERAGE Obama federal spending 2009 to 2012 (24% of GDP), then you CAN say that Obama INDEED raised federal spending by 20% over that of Bush, yet kept the federal taxation rate (17% of GDP) the same. The nonsense of the federal spending "percentage of increase" argument is then exposed as the lie it is.
    Problem is, though, "Obama's record spending" was one of the Republicans' biggest talking points. And it's been shot to hell.

    Now you're throwing in GDP into the mix, whereas I was referring to pure spending. I'll have to look over that and get back to you.
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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    And you just lied there. I clearly said lowest INCREASE, NOT lowest spending. If you want to try to make a fact-based claim, you would be better off using facts. Here is a precise measurement that shows the truth of Obama's statement. The only thing he got wrong was the inflation factor, but even with that, he's second-best after Eisenhower. Not bad company.
    Where did you say the word "Increase"? You claimed the "Obama debt half-truth," I assume based on the blatantly dishonest and misleading Nutting article of much recent fame that itself conflates lowest ever with lowest increase... which is also wrong.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Problem is, though, "Obama's record spending" was one of the Republicans' biggest talking points. And it's been shot to hell.

    Now you're throwing in GDP into the mix, whereas I was referring to pure spending. I'll have to look over that and get back to you.
    Thank you, for considering my point, please do check on my assertions, to ensure that they are truely facts. The federal deficit is a very simple concept, it is a function of federal spending EXCEEDING federal revenue, under Bush it averaged 20%, under Obama it averaged 40%. The congress made, and agreed to, "rules" that stated that ANY spending increases, must be "paid for" by either cuts in spending or tax increases to fund the new spending, UNLESS they were "emergencies". The congress is so stupid, or arrogant, that they even considered the 2010 census (a 200 year old tradition) to be treated as an "emergency" for spending purposes. The congress then chose to use only "promises" of spending cuts, occurring in future budget years (as many as 10 of them), to "pay for" new "non-emergency" spending in the current year. These "promises" are not law, or binding in any way, as no current congress may deny (or limit) any furture congress (or president) the power to "budget" as they see fit. USA, USA, USA...
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-15-12 at 09:05 PM.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Thank you, for considering my point, please do check on my assertions, to ensure that they are truely facts. The federal deficit is a very simple concept, it is a function of federal spending EXCEEDING federal revenue, under Bush it averaged 20%, under Obama it averaged 40%. The congress made, and agreed to, "rules" that stated that ANY spending increases, must be "paid for" by either cuts in spending or tax increases to fund the new spending, UNLESS they were "emergencies". The congress is so stupid, or arrogant, that they even considered the 2010 census (a 200 year old tradition) to be treated as an "emergency" for spending purposes. The congress then chose to use only "promises" of spending cuts, occurring in future budget years (as many as 10 of them), to "pay for" new "non-emergency" spending in the current year. These "promises" are not law, or binding in any way, as no current congress may deny (or limit) any furture congress (or president) the power to "budget" as they see fit. USA, USA, USA...
    Hey, no problem. I'm always willing to change my mind, BUT it will take a well-reasoned, BS-free argument to get me there.

    Anyway. Here is what I was able to find. For the life of me I had real trouble getting many useful charts past the year 2010.



    Let the debate begin over that spike at 2009. The way I see it, though, there's clearly a rise right around the time Obama took office--but compared to the rest of the graph, especially those spikes at WWI and WWII, it honestly doesn't look like much more than a natural ebb and flow.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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    Re: Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups

    As a percentage of GDP, Obama's spending is higher than Bush's. In real numbers, it's the highest ever. Now, adjusted for inflation, I haven't a clue. I have no idea what the real rate of inflation is at this moment in time.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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