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EPA Spying on Ranchers

notquiteright said:
Sawyer-
you would most certainly be dead. I doubt you carrying your rifle scared the chopper away, more like they got what they wanted, a view of the garden, and left. Cops see firearms all the time, now point it at them and yes they will be scared.

Yes you are a minority as you keep insisting on bogus 'rights'. Grow a pot plant on your condo balcony and see what everyone, to include the Supreme Court, says about the 4th Amendment. The police/EPA/citizen has every right to LOOK at your property OUTSIDE your home. To come ON your property and SEIZE something you own is another story, but you can't stand on your front porch and engage in illegal activity and expect the cop driving by on routine patrol to turn a blind eye.

I live at the end of a dirt road. I understand the difference between inside my house and pissin off the front porch. You are the king of your castle, not a stairway to heaven...
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I may be one of the last of men that really knows what fredom is and hates to see it slipping away.
 
Billy the Kid said:
EPA planes spying on ranchers? Lawmakers want answers - U.S. News

"A Nebraska cattlemen’s group is pushing the Environmental Protection Agency to stop pollution-control flights over ranches, claiming it amounts to spying on citizens. EPA, meanwhile, says the flights are an effective way to quickly spot -- and stop -- pollution from manure lagoons and other waste at large livestock operations."


Ya just gotta love the gov't. I guess the EPA just wants to make sure all ranchers are walking in lockstep.


Wonder how they got a warrant to do this? Wonder who's next on the spy-in-the-sky's "lookie see" program? Maybe your backyard?
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What a dumb ****ing argument. A flyover is a breach of privacy? If these aircraft had thermal vision or some **** maybe they might have a point.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
I don't see a big difference in the gov't entering a food service establishment for a health inspection, and the EPA checking the racncher's property for pollution inspection. You want "probable cause" warrants applied only for ranchers, or for restaurants as well? Both reataurants and ranchers have responsibilities to ensure no harm to public safety is done, and both involve private property, simply because the rancher's 'customers' do not visit his facility, he takes his beef to market, that does not mean that he may pollute the water with impunity, any more that a restaurant may declare their kitchen "private" and allow inspection of the dining area only, without a warrant. If raw sewage is found in running in a street curb, must the police now get a warrant to examine the yards in the neighborhood to determine the source of the spill?
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I don't think that you understood my point. My concern isn't for the flyover itself. That to me is just like looking at someones yard from the street/sidewalk...so long as it is just taking pictures that a normal everyday camera can take. My concern is for the type of technology that they either are using or will eventually be using due to advancements. People are currently looking into technology that can see through walls. What if they are successful and use that technology on the drones? Or in a van across the street?

The reasoning behind the idea that it is legal for the drone to fly overhead looking for things without a search warrant because its not technically on your property could be used for this technology that we are developing.
 
StillBallin75 said:
What a dumb ****ing argument. A flyover is a breach of privacy? If these aircraft had thermal vision or some **** maybe they might have a point.
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DEA helicopters do have thermal equipment on board to find pot plants. If its legal for them then it would prolly be legal for a drone.
 
Actually the Supreme Court has ruled the use of thermal imaging to see in a house is a search and must have a search warrant. Kyllo vs US 2001 5-4.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I am really in the minority here but I completely disagree with you on this one. A rancher’s ranch is no different to him than somebody who lives in a condos porch is to him. It is his private property and he should be assured the right to privacy on his land. If pollution shows up downstream then the EPA should get a search warrant to come onto his land and have a look around just as they would to come in his house.
When the DEA choppers circle my house and garden I can’t tell you how angry I get. If it wasn’t for the consequences of such an action I would most certainly open fire. I once walked out with a 30-06 in my left hand while I gave them the finger with my right hand, I was just daring them to file charges and expected cops to show up but they never did. I was careful not to aim my rifle at them so the only pics they had of me was carrying a rifle which is not illegal. They did fly away though; I think I made my point.
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The bolded part, I disagree with.

A rancher isn't using his ranch as a home. Rather, he's using it as a business. Therefore he is just as responsible to follow business practices as demanded by law as anyone else is.

Now I agree that these kinds of drone flights shouldn't be done over a person's private home. But if your private home is also a business then it can be flown over to make sure it's following regulations.

If you don't want your home looked at for what it does as business then live away from your business.
 
samsmart said:
The bolded part, I disagree with.

A rancher isn't using his ranch as a home. Rather, he's using it as a business. Therefore he is just as responsible to follow business practices as demanded by law as anyone else is.

Now I agree that these kinds of drone flights shouldn't be done over a person's private home. But if your private home is also a business then it can be flown over to make sure it's following regulations.

If you don't want your home looked at for what it does as business then live away from your business.
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My land is officialy designated timber land because it's a tax write off and I do log it but that does not mean I don't enjoy just walking around at times and enjoying my "yard". Its a big yard but to me its home not a business.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
My land is officialy designated timber land because it's a tax write off and I do log it but that does not mean I don't enjoy just walking around at times and enjoying my "yard". Its a big yard but to me its home not a business.
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Then if you want it to be treated like your home don't have it designated as timber land for the tax write off.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
My land is officialy designated timber land because it's a tax write off and I do log it but that does not mean I don't enjoy just walking around at times and enjoying my "yard". Its a big yard but to me its home not a business.
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Yeah, and I consider my cars my babies, I don't get to claim them as dependents on my taxes.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Spoken like a true big brother is OK with you liberal.
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And it's just like a conservative to try to game the system for some extra money and is bitchin about it when it bites him on his ass.
 
samsmart said:
And it's just like a conservative to try to game the system for some extra money and is bitchin about it when it bites him on his ass.
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You do realize you are trying to debate a straw man you invented don't you? My land being timber land has absaloutly nothing with the DEA being able to fly over it. You are caught up in your on BS.
 
Sawyer-
and we all know you realize timber lands are where many pot farmers grow their plants. That is in the News every crop season. Some gangs have guards living out in the timber lands.

But it is funny YOU claim your land as your backyard AND a business expense. That is the strawman YOU brought into the discussion attempting to make your land the same as a condo balcony, same as a 1/4 acre backyard in suburbia. Pot farmers don't grow acre sized pot plots in suburbia, if they did the DEA would be overflying the backyard cookout. The DEA goes where the trail leads, not to where they can piss out grumpy old men.

No slippery slope, just a paranoid 'conservative' trying to game the system.
 
notquiteright said:
Sawyer-
and we all know you realize timber lands are where many pot farmers grow their plants. That is in the News every crop season. Some gangs have guards living out in the timber lands.

But it is funny YOU claim your land as your backyard AND a business expense. That is the strawman YOU brought into the discussion attempting to make your land the same as a condo balcony, same as a 1/4 acre backyard in suburbia. Pot farmers don't grow acre sized pot plots in suburbia, if they did the DEA would be overflying the backyard cookout. The DEA goes where the trail leads, not to where they can piss out grumpy old men.

No slippery slope, just a paranoid 'conservative' trying to game the system.
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It is far from gaming the system, it is the system and you get tax breaks for specific reasons. Theres alot of rules that go with being a designated "tree farm", most are good rules.

"ATFS was established in response to concerns that America's private forests were being cut at unsustainable rates without reforestation. It all began in 1941 when the first Tree Farm was designated in Washington State. The Tree Farm's purpose was to demonstrate sound forest management practices to area landowners. California's Tree Farm program started later in 1941 and has grown to include over 3,700 Tree Farms covering 3.6 million acres of the state

Getting Started in Sustainable Forestry

Sound, sustainable forests begin with determining objectives, deciding what resources are available on your land, and developing a written forest management plan that meets ATFS standards and guidelines as well as meeting your forest needs for generations to come. A professional forester can answer your questions and help you develop your management plan.

The American Tree Farm System has developed a management plan template that can be used in the development of new forest management plans. The template is intended as a helpful guide, containing all of the major sections required in Tree Farm management plans according to the AFF Standards of Sustainability for Forest Certification.
Sustainable Forestry Defined

Sustainable forestry means managing our forests to meet the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs by practicing a land stewardship ethic which integrates the reforestation, managing, growing, nurturing and harvesting of trees for useful products with the conservation of soil, air and water quality, wildlife and fish habitat and aesthetics."
 
sawyerloggingon said:
It is far from gaming the system, it is the system and you get tax breaks for specific reasons. Theres alot of rules that go with being a designated "tree farm", most are good rules.

"ATFS was established in response to concerns that America's private forests were being cut at unsustainable rates without reforestation. It all began in 1941 when the first Tree Farm was designated in Washington State. The Tree Farm's purpose was to demonstrate sound forest management practices to area landowners. California's Tree Farm program started later in 1941 and has grown to include over 3,700 Tree Farms covering 3.6 million acres of the state

Getting Started in Sustainable Forestry

Sound, sustainable forests begin with determining objectives, deciding what resources are available on your land, and developing a written forest management plan that meets ATFS standards and guidelines as well as meeting your forest needs for generations to come. A professional forester can answer your questions and help you develop your management plan.

The American Tree Farm System has developed a management plan template that can be used in the development of new forest management plans. The template is intended as a helpful guide, containing all of the major sections required in Tree Farm management plans according to the AFF Standards of Sustainability for Forest Certification.
Sustainable Forestry Defined

Sustainable forestry means managing our forests to meet the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs by practicing a land stewardship ethic which integrates the reforestation, managing, growing, nurturing and harvesting of trees for useful products with the conservation of soil, air and water quality, wildlife and fish habitat and aesthetics."
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It's also the system that demands that businesses must follow regulations on their businesses, which is why business regulators must do what they have to to ensure that businesses are following those regulations.

And if you don't want business regulators snooping around your business because it's your home then don't make your home your business.

It's as simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I may be one of the last of men that really knows what fredom is and hates to see it slipping away.
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You mean the freedom to dump toxic chemicals wherever someone pleases? Yeah, ok.....
 
samsmart said:
It's also the system that demands that businesses must follow regulations on their businesses, which is why business regulators must do what they have to to ensure that businesses are following those regulations.

And if you don't want business regulators snooping around your business because it's your home then don't make your home your business.

It's as simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Typical lib response, every time I corner you on one subject you just change the subject, NOW you want to talk about business regulators instead of DEA fly overs huh. I'm done.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Typical lib response, every time I corner you on one subject you just change the subject, NOW you want to talk about business regulators instead of DEA fly overs huh. I'm done.
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Well, considering the thread is about the EPA spying on ranchers, that's the issue at hand here.

So I suppose it's just your typical conservative response to change the subject from business regulators to DEA fly overs. Glad you're done.
 
Sawyer-
You don't need to 'explain' your tax dodge to me, I own creek bottom and that makes my recreational area, mostly hunting, a tax write off. You attempt to game the system by trying to declare your 'backyard' as you call it, a tax write off. But it really doesn't matter if it is a backyard or a quarter section of timber, you don't own the airspace.

I don't see that as typical whiny conservative, more like just another self-centered citizen.

You are incorrect to think your/our freedoms are slipping away. YOU never had ownership of the airspace to the heavens. NO ONE in this Republic ever did. You are quite free do continue to walk in the forest, carry a weapon on your property, be secure in your own home. Nothing has been lost except your fantasy of sky ownership.

You never did answer how many times the DEA chopper hovered over you exchanging meaningful looks.

You sound a bit paranoid, I hear pot smokers can be that way... :peace
 
notquiteright said:
Sawyer-
You don't need to 'explain' your tax dodge to me, I own creek bottom and that makes my recreational area, mostly hunting, a tax write off. You attempt to game the system by trying to declare your 'backyard' as you call it, a tax write off. But it really doesn't matter if it is a backyard or a quarter section of timber, you don't own the airspace.

I don't see that as typical whiny conservative, more like just another self-centered citizen.

You are incorrect to think your/our freedoms are slipping away. YOU never had ownership of the airspace to the heavens. NO ONE in this Republic ever did. You are quite free do continue to walk in the forest, carry a weapon on your property, be secure in your own home. Nothing has been lost except your fantasy of sky ownership.

You never did answer how many times the DEA chopper hovered over you exchanging meaningful looks.

You sound a bit paranoid, I hear pot smokers can be that way... :peace
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You apparently missed my post on the tree farm program, scroll.
 
Billy the Kid said:
Well I'd agree, but did you see where they had a "warrant in hand" to do this? If not, then isn't this action unconstitutional?

I can see by you post it would be okay with you if they "monitored" your actions every now and again, without cause or warrant. But it wouldn't be okay in my book.


Just asking. :)
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The Supreme Court made a ruling on this in 1984 in Oliver v. United States. Open fields are not protected by the Fourth Amendment an. d do not constitute a search. Also, "the public and police lawfully may survey lands from the air".
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Highways are public areas, you have no expectation of privacy or private property rights against search and seizure.
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And ranches are a business that have restrictions. It's not like they're peeping into the bedrooms.
 
Hikertrash said:
And ranches are a business that have restrictions. It's not like they're peeping into the bedrooms.
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What if the rancher and his wife are enjoying a picnic down by the creek, bottle of wine, a light breeze. Next thing ya know they are rolling around naked on the blanket and then a drone flies over sending pics back for a bunch of gov assholes to leer at. I say this because my wife was gardening topless one day when the DEA chopper swooped in over the hill above us. I should be able to expect privacy in my f**** yard. Dont ya think???
 
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